THE "CHATBOX"

[sekito]

I must say I don't really investigate these cases in depth anymore, I just look at the news items from my home country on nu.nl, my current country Uganda on monitor.co.ug and for fun I look at fox and cnn a few times a week. Not so much because I am interested in the 'news' but more that I am interested in the manipulation, to see how they form the minds of the masses, how they push us toward their goals.

I don’t watch the news either, I just let them come to me.
It seems Germany is also pushing for stricter gun laws, following the so-called Reichsburger attempted coup (which allegedly is influenced by Anon conspiracy theories blah blah);
a secret arrest but not so secret that they have professional photographers ready at the doorstep
https://twitter.com/HeimatliebeDE/statu ... 6026551297

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On a completed unrelated note,
I’ve been giving some thought to Snowden and the Prism expose recently;
assuming Snowden is a deep state agent, what is the point of the whole operation? And then, it came to me: what if the whole Prism project is a hoax? For sure, the NSA ‘could’ monitor everyone, but are they really? Or is it a psy-op to get people scared about what they say on the net

[Mansur]

I've heard of things where - for example - young ladies, after discussing some important aspect of their lives, I think it was lingerie brands or something like that, of course, in the intimate vicinity of their smartphones, and the next day they had ads on their Facebook/twitter pages about the topic so widely that even they had to notice.

Of course, this information does not meet even the slightest degree of reliability, - and furthermore, if one 'perceives' or 'experiences' such a thing, there is no power in the whole world, at least not in the hands of a private person, to qualify this 'experience' back into a 'supposition'.

If someone has secrets, and I don't think there is the slightest novelty in that, he should keep his mouth shut, whether he is on the internet or elsewhere (if such a thing is still possible).

In a word, its commercial use is more than likely, police access is tangible, - the question is rather who is the real owner or seller. 'Governments' or deep state' are just words. But I don't think it's important to stick to those words or invent new ones. To even dwell on these things so much is, in my opinion, more than it deserves.
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... if anyone want to research history, I would suggest you start with Fomenko ...

If one 'starts with Fomenko', let me ask, what does one continue with?

Fomenko does not write history, he simply denies it. Because no one can seriously believe that he, with his computer programs and algorithms (he is a mathematician), has discovered some new, deeper meaning to history than has been hitherto understood by anyone. Of course, he claims no such thing. Doesn't even need one.

This whole business (including a good many other versions of the 'suppressed history' theme, and the predecessors) gives me the impression of a conscious-unconscious attempt in groping towards an actual 'Newspeak'. On the professional/official side, these things are called 'pseudoscience'. What a wonderful term! And how freshing to listen to the debate between them!!!!

If history and chronology are synonymous, that is, if history is nothing but, preferably, correct chronology, then the Fomenkos are next...

[sekito]

If one 'starts with Fomenko', let me ask, what does one continue with?

Fomenko does not write history, he simply denies it. Because no one can seriously believe that he, with his computer programs and algorithms (he is a mathematician), has discovered some new, deeper meaning to history than has been hitherto understood by anyone. Of course, he claims no such thing. Doesn't even need one.

Despite I suspect your question to be a rhetorical one, I will however still answer it: historical revisionism did not start or end with Fomenko, it is arguable that it started with Newton in his “The Chronology of Ancient Kingdoms”; and Fomenko followed the work of Nikolai A. Morozov. Some other revisionists I know of, in no particular order:
Andrei Stepanenko
Andrei Postogarov
Robert Baldauf
Christoph Pfister
Edwin Johnson
Gunter Ullrich
Wilhelm Kammeier
Gunnar Heinsohn
Uwe Topper
Emmet Scott
Syrian Tristan
etc

And then there’s a new breed of internet historians who don’t publish books as well.

As to the point of revisionists only deny history: I would consider that a mischaracterization, some shift the timeline around without denying the events happen, some deny certain events altogether, and some create new theories as to what actually happened (this happens most often with Bible researchers). Also, how are we to make sense of history if the chronology we know of is in fact false? Case in point, how are we to interpret the wars waged by United States if we believe 911 and the other terrorism events to be real, versus when we believe them to be fake?

Finally, as to ‘finding meaning’ in history - I doubt it is the job of historians to find meaning, that would be the job of anthropologists - who prefer to work with myths and legends, so that’s a whole other field quite different from what we are talking about

[Macaria]

assuming Snowden is a deep state agent, what is the point of the whole operation? And then, it came to me: what if the whole Prism project is a hoax? For sure, the NSA ‘could’ monitor everyone, but are they really? Or is it a psy-op to get people scared about what they say on the net

Interesting to contemplate.
I think the intention is to scare people - for the chilling effect and so people self-censor. This is the "panopticon" idea.

Security agencies are well resourced. Once an individual is selected they could dredge up (and comb through) probably their whole internet footprint in their whole history - every keystroke etc. The monitoring can be done, but not for everyone. Manpower would limit this kind of thing. An individual would have to hit a certain 'interest level' to warrant the need for such a process and by that stage, having been identified, probably most of that info is irrelevant and useless anyway.

I'd say that probably a more important use of data for them is the gauging of the sentiments of populations en masse, (rather than of individuals here and there). When they are deciding whether to institute mask mandates, for example, they can scrape all sorts of social media, youtube comments etc and with data analytics find out what the masses are thinking.
I imagine it works like this:
>A campaign begins where the media push out their COnVID scare tactics. Politicians start floating the idea of mandates.
>The pulse of people is read via big data - the level of dissent/compliance is analysed, pockets of resistance may be identified.
>From this it can be decided whether to push ahead with mandates, or hold back and either soften the populace up with additional fear porn, (which can be catered based on the analysis), or to cease the operation all together.

Without a good understanding of the level of resistance, a government mandate could quickly be rendered null by mass-non-compliance. This could quickly escalate. Not only would the government lose face, people may actually realise that their collective actions have power, that they can resist, that they have many like-minded supporters and that the government is weak. Some sense of popular solidarity against any COnVID mandates could be forged.

For a government to retain some level of credibility and to be able to enforce anything in future, this situation has to be avoided - big data is a very useful tool in this service.

[patrix]

Regarding Snowden that's precisely my thought on that psyop. It's main objective is to create fear of surveillance. It's a modern tech version of "God sees and hears everything"

[Macaria]

Queensland (Wieambilla) shooting on 12/12, where the main shooter Train is allegedly a “conspiracy theorist”, and he and his family gunned down his neighbor “Dare”, as well as 2 policemen

I had been ignoring this story. But then I saw the headline:

Peter Dutton becomes emotional during condolence motion for Queensland police officers killed in shooting

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-15/ ... /101776036

Former Qld copper and opposition party leader became emotional? A man whose regular disposition is indignant and/or belligerent denial - "I never did nuffin'"?
This is about as realistic as.... well, as any other politician that ever cried before a camera. Dutton doing a sob routine? Must be an important story.

And I must say that Nefilimp summed it up well:

they want to take away the firearms and they want people to associate legit concerns about the experimental injections with crazy copkillers

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-16/ ... /101778102

On Thursday Home Affairs Minister Clare O'Neil said the internet had "turbocharged" conspiracy theories and disinformation.
[...]
"There will be deep and very important policy questions for us here as a parliament to think about how our country prevents and deals with acts of violence.

There are possible legislative repercussions beyond gun control. They may be internet censorship related or possibly related to increased checks on people in professions such as teaching - (two of the Trains were former school principals).

The story is just perfect. Not just because of the good timing, (this is around the time people are beginning their leave over the Christmas summer break), but also because these particular copkillers just happen, to tick every box that the government wants to cast suspicion on and malign:
people that were forced from their job due to vcs mandates, preppers or people that seek to live outside the system, people who have been 'misled' by the internet, people with guns etc, etc.

An example:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-16/ ... /101778102

Sources also told the ABC Gareth had long held some extremist views about the role of government, religious groups and police, which had deepened during the pandemic with comments under the name 'Gareth Train' appearing on sovereign citizen and conspiracy theory websites

Just keep an eye on your acquaintance that expressed wrongthink. He may have once worked for the education department, but the next minute he may be ranting about Bill Gates, and once there, all roads lead to ambushing police and killing them "execution style". It happens just that quickly.

Many stories are coming out painting these bad guys with all sorts of nasty things. Details will be drip-fed so the story can be beat up for weeks on end - "Police found a swastika in Train's pocket"!, "colleagues reveal: Train once kicked puppy"!, "Train disbelieved in the moon landings"! etc.

So anyway... all three Trains are safely dead, they were killed attempting to shoot more police - a suicide mission. As usual, the story of the event lacks coherence. A particular favourite story I've caught is transcribed from the last minute of the video in the link and bares the banner text:
HEROIC ACT
Local officers drove onto property while under fire:

https://amp-9news-com-au.cdn.ampproject ... cf29a272a7

Today we also have some new details about the heroic efforts of 16 country cops - the lengths they went to to recover the bodies of their colleagues in what they hoped would be a mission to save them. But unfortunately they were not able to do so. Now they actually met outside the property on the afternoon of the shooting before the special emergency response team arrived -hatched a plan (what was the plan?) and it was here they found the body of the innocent neighbour Alan Dare. He was unable to be saved. They used his vehicle under intense fire driving towards the house before they were able to pull the bodies of their colleagues in and drive out. They also helped guide that constable Keely Brough to a safe spot where she too could be extracted. So, guys it has just been a really tough week out here.

How absurd. So after hatching a plan, the 16 of them piled into the neighbour's car and drove recklessly into a hail of bullets? They then managed to drag two bodies in before picking up a survivor - that makes 19. Must be one of those clown cars.
And not one of these heroes is named. Why aren't these 16 heroes getting more attention?

[Mansur]

@ Sekito

The (astronomical-archeological) 'assumptions' on which the 'theory' is based, as well as the cybernetic method by which they try (historically-philologically) to prove it (as much as they have published at all, how their 'algorithms' were worked out), can, in my opinion, be safely classified as 'complete nonsense'. ('Pseudoscience' is perhaps a very legitimate label, - but we should know what those who use the term mean by 'real' science.)

It is perhaps not impossible that such madness does exist and operate in the minds of some people, but for my part I would prefer to vote for conscious propaganda - which, after all, is not that far off.

It may also be (if one is allowed to infer the purpose from the effect) that this extravagant thing is only intended to further smooth the way for the official scholarly history. As a kind of flat-earthism.

Finally, as to ‘finding meaning’ in history - I doubt it is the job of historians to find meaning, that would be the job of anthropologists - who prefer to work with myths and legends, so that’s a whole other field quite different from what we are talking about

There is no history without meaning.
Things do not happen accidentally – especially when it seemed worth recording.
To shuffle off this thing or task, inherent even in our minutest business with history, to ‘anthropologists’, maybe in the name of ‘division of labour’, seems an intellectually dishonest move.
And there is no meaning independent of the receiving mind.

[To add:] You assume my question was 'rhetorical': not sure what you mean by that. So, let me put in this way: Whoever 'starting' his study with this, will he ever actually study a particular age at all? In your own words:

Also, how are we to make sense of history if the chronology we know of is in fact false?

I was charged here with nihilism more than once, - now, what could this claim of ‘new chronology’ other than a most profound nihilism?

Nothing in history, especially European history, is as self-evident as chronology - however problematic this may be in some cases, however much falsification may have been done, whether in bad faith or through negligence or other ways.

____________________________

Without a good understanding of the level of resistance, a government mandate could quickly be rendered null by mass-non-compliance. This could quickly escalate. Not only would the government lose face, people may actually realise that their collective actions have power, that they can resist, that they have many like-minded supporters and that the government is weak. Some sense of popular solidarity against any COnVID mandates could be forged.

This line of thought could only be valid, in my opinion, if the masses were not masses but something else. But unfortunately this is not the case. You also emphasize the conditional mode for a reason. (Why not throughout the paragraph?)

What do you mean by collective action, please?

People are not 'like-minded' in any way; when they appear to be so, it is the result of external influences. So, do we want people to be that and show power that their collective action has more power than power?

[Macaria]

Without a good understanding of the level of resistance, a government mandate could quickly be rendered null by mass-non-compliance. This could quickly escalate. Not only would the government lose face, people may actually realise that their collective actions have power, that they can resist, that they have many like-minded supporters and that the government is weak. Some sense of popular solidarity against any COnVID mandates could be forged.

This line of thought could only be valid, in my opinion, if the masses were not masses but something else. But unfortunately this is not the case.

Mansur, I don't know what you mean. Can you write clearly why you think the above line of thought is invalid?

What do you mean by collective action, please?

The context of the paragraph makes "collective action" clear enough. This collective action may also be collective inaction (ie against edicts).

So, do we want people to be that and show power that their collective action has more power than power?

We? Well I don't know what you want people to do Mansur! But to give an example that follows from my line of thought above, I would like to see resistance against mandated mask wearing force a government back down. Well, some say I'm a dreamer... (Actually no one says that)

[Mansur]

We? Well I don't know what you want people to do Mansur! But to give an example that follows from my line of thought above, I would like to see resistance against mandated mask wearing force a government back down. Well, some say I'm a dreamer... (Actually no one says that)

(Maybe you deserve one... )

I don't think I want people to do anything, I've got enough on my plate - the only reason I responded was that I don't see any reality of any 'resistance' coming from the wider public. The media preaches the word and people act as if they believe it, i.e. 'obey'.

I don't understand why you are so hostile. The reason I asked about collective action is because I don't think there is such a thing - since the masses are not collectives, but some sort of co-existence without any organic connection. For my part, I don't have a solution to this. Perhaps dreaming is really the best we can do (without irony). But if it is a dream, let it be a good dream (not poisoned by propaganda). To dream is to dream alone.


The only solution, the much preached 'awakening' maybe, - to start dreaming here - is if people would develop long and deep dialogues with one another in private.


Anyway, if collective action is so important, why should it apply to this single thing (mask wearing mandate, - or any other) - which is only one thing out of not hundreds or thousands, but millions? The 'Controller' also wants (if he exists) the people to always be concerned with the 'current thing' - which he is making current, no?

___________________________________


Merry Christmas, - people!


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[Macaria]

(Maybe you deserve one... )

??
Not a ‘mansurdity’ this time, but another ‘manbiguity’.

I don't see any reality of any 'resistance' coming from the wider public. [...]
The reason I asked about collective action is because I don't think there is such a thing - since the masses are not collectives, but some sort of co-existence without any organic connection.

The first part is reasonable, however...

Let’s say it’s hot. A collective action occurs - many people go to the beach. There is really such a thing. I heard that the Israel’s COVID green pass was dumped because of popular resistance (collective action). This is far from impossible. I would argue that it is only the collective resistance of the public that keeps the cultural “progression” from evolving at a yet faster rate. The PTB understand that enough consent has to be manufactured to smooth the way for societal change in a desired direction. Oh, but I forgot, you do not believe that the PTB or controllers even exist...

One of the reasons we have been at odds and the reason you have been charged with defeatism is that you take exception to such possibilities as collective action/resistance. Why do you feel the need to pour cold water over this?

Perhaps dreaming is really the best we can do (without irony). But if it is a dream, let it be a good dream (not poisoned by propaganda).

Another reason is your form of critique.
You have expressed that you think: collective action does not exist, the PTB do not exist, real science does not exist...

Applying your style of critique, I could, for example, declare that your line of thought is invalid because I don’t think propaganda-free dreaming is possible. And then I would not follow this with any decent argument to back up my position. Do you get what I mean? And no hostile tone is intended.

Anyway, if collective action is so important, why should it apply to this single thing (mask wearing mandate, - or any other) - which is only one thing out of not hundreds or thousands, but millions?

A further reason is your fabrication of straw men. The emphasis on a "single thing" is your own.

Hoping for more constructive interactions in future!

[simonshack]

*

Dear Cluesforum member & readers,

Let me just wish you all a wonderful new year. As the incurable optimist that I am, I can only see things getting better as time goes by, as this planet's population should gradually realize - slowly but surely and step by step - just how many pathetic, outrageous and silly lies have been sold to us by the Nutwork (a.k.a. "the powers that shouldn't be"...).

I dare say that we - here at this valiant forum - should all feel proud about our collective contributions towards the demolition of the 'babylonic' castle of cards built over the centuries by the powerclowns in charge. Yes, there IS intelligent life on planet Earth - and folks like us are living proof of this. Haven't "tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists" been proven right by now - in almost every imaginable way?

Hugs, love and laughter - Simon

[pov603]

Best wishes to you too, Simon and all the other participants of CF.
May 2023 bring the world closer to the truth!

[Mansur]

__________

While I am by no means an optimist, on the occasion of the New Year, my best wishes to all.
__________
__________

Let’s say it’s hot. A collective action occurs - many people go to the beach. There is really such a thing. I heard that the Israel’s COVID green pass was dumped because of popular resistance (collective action). This is far from impossible. I would argue that it is only the collective resistance of the public that keeps the cultural “progression” from evolving at a yet faster rate. The PTB understand that enough consent has to be manufactured to smooth the way for societal change in a desired direction. Oh, but I forgot, you do not believe that the PTB or controllers even exist...

Dear Macaria, are you going to start a new thread with this particular ‘event’ about the Jews in Israel feeling a strong solidarity with each other and with their truth and collectivity, thus ‘keeping the cultural “progression” from evolving at a yet faster rate’? Or you just don’t 'feel the need to pour cold water on this?' It is so conducive to sound sleep and healing dreams!?

‘The PTB understand that enough consent has to be manufactured to smooth the way for societal change in a desired direction’ you say. Of course it is quite so, - except that it is trivial; the power that be goes so far as it can. That is known for a long time and by all of us about the nature of modern power structure. The question here and always is how long can it go and how far has it already gone?!
Without manufacturing resistance or opposition there is no modern propaganda. If that were not so Noah Chomsky would be a wise man and a hero. And that is also so trivial that one is ashamed to have to say it again. (It is presumptuous to pretend to know the limits of the powers that be, but I hope, sincerely hope, that I seem just presumptuous enough, because I am convinced, and it is nourished in almost every post, that this limit extends much further than most people here think or dare to think. There are a lot of things that the 'conspiracy nuts' are ringing the bell about, but that have been a reality for a long, long time.)
It is strange how you so nonchalantly give credence to a hearsay, so much so that you can present it as an argument with self-evident tone.


Though we could make a consensus calling any reaction made simultaneously and by a number of people to a given ‘threat’ or stimulus, ‘collective action,’ I think, however, it wouldn’t be a wise thing considering that the power that be, or its right hand, the media, is doing actually the same. Our sociologists / psychologists usually tend to prefer the word ‘group.’ (That latter term is very much a synonym for ‘mass’.)

As to the nature of the thing (collective action), your example of ‘hot day and beach’ is indeed very telling and becoming…
(On the other hand: if you were on that beach, and you're perceptive, you'd certainly find very different reasons for why each bather and sunbather is there - if you're not a fan of things trivial.)
______________________

(You don't seem to be using the quote function in accordance with fair play. Even your memory of my previous statements seems to be joining the deal. But anyway, that's your business, not mine.)

[pov603]

This is to all members who live in the far flung reaches of the planet and who may happen to be pet-lovers (cats, dogs primarily).

Living in the Middle East/Gulf region, we have, over the years took in rescued strays (mostly cats but also rescued a budgie some years ago and even a random cockatiel, both of whom have sadly passed after years under our care).

Just in case you're wondering how many cats we have, when asked, I always reply "Too!" and when asked again, "what are both of their names?" I go, "No, you misunderstand! Too many!".

I tend to get some laughs but my partner, who has heard me say this many times, she rarely laughs now.

Anyway, I digress (it's EIGHT by the way!)...over the last 18 months to 24 months (certainly - and coincidently? - over the Covid Saga) there has been a large roll out of 5g in this region.

Admittedly not all are into it yet here, but it is inevitable.

Around about the same time, it was noticed by us (and many others too) how much various types of cat food were no longer available on the market.

This was around the time of the Canal being blocked and people actually believing that this was causing world-wide shortages of regular items on the shelves.

Nonetheless, since then, the shortages have remained, and supplies are very limited (especially the top selling ones which our cats loved).

This also coincided with the Govt bringing in legislation to stop people feed stray animals and birds (of which there are many, sad to say).

That's not to say it is draconian here - far from it - I cannot think of being anywhere else than here as it is very clear (and safe) as to what you can and cannot do and you almost always know where you stand (though without much recourse either in many instances).

What does all of this mean?

I am not entirely sure, however, recently (say over the last 6 months) there have been some strange ads appearing along the highway advertising "Trackers" which did not explain anything else (other than having a strange logo - in green - which looked like a finger with the head of a toad wearing sunglasses and a cap).

I attach a link to a forum that i have just discovered which is asking the very same thing that I wondered (please see below).

It turns out Trackers is something to do with Pest control.

Is this related to imminent 5g and the likely impact it will have on fauna?

Will these signals cause insects to pour out of the ground/air and into people's homes?

Is it some sort of conditioning to prepare us to get rid of pets, strays, insects?

Will it lead to calls for "Let's turn these pesky insects into meat burgers and save the planet!"?

I will keep you posted on how things turn out but would ask that you look/see what is happening in your vicinity and if there is anything similar (other than 5g roll out) going on.

Reddit link below - please see the few comments if the above is too much of a ramble!

https://www.reddit.com/r/dubai/comments ... &context=3

[simonshack]

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MY MAIL SERVER IS DOWN (since January 23 - at 10pm)

Dear all,

This is just to let you know that my Italian mail server (which hosts my simonshack[at]libero.it e-mail account) has been down for almost three days - and appears to be still down today. Apparently, an 'internal server malfunction' is the cause of this unprecedented downtime - and millions of Italian Libero users cannot access their e-mail accounts.

"Libero mail and Virgilio down, disruptions throughout Italy: here's what's happening" : https://www.affaritaliani.it/mediatech/ ... 35962.html

So, this is just to say that if you've tried to contact me via e-mail these last few days, this is the reason why I haven't been able to reply to your messages. For any urgent communication you might have, please use my alternative e-mail account at Yahoo Mail: sublunars[at]yahoo.co.uk

All the best to you all / Simon