9/11 MEMORIAL SCAMS, VICSIMS, Etc

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simonshack
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by simonshack »

Utah wrote: If they are fakers, the Mom and Dad featured in the video are better actors than most of the 911 liars.
Dear Utah,

I would agree that Mrs Ingrassia and her hubby both come through as more believable/natural-looking/legit than, for instance Alice Hoglan - the supposed mother of Mark Bingham (the infamous "Hi-mum!-This-is-Mark-Bingham" hero of "Flight 93"...) :


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veCp4TygKUA

However, when judging these various MFM ("Mourning Family Members") interviews - which keep getting released year after year - we need to consider a number of aspects, the very first which comes to mind being: "WHEN was the MFM interview I am watching released?" See, I can personally testify/assure you that say, back in 2007, every single MFM interview out there featured absolutely horrid acting, with almost hilariously crass/contrived acting by 3d rate actors (see, for instance, those featured in my "911 PROPAGANDA" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9VnZ-BMR3s

Now, to be sure, the one you linked to above (Christopher Ingrassia's alleged parents' MFM interview) is dated August 11, 2011. This is, of course, almost two years after the release of the VICSIM REPORT (September 11, 2009). So the simple question I'll ask you to consider is :

Could it possibly be that the VICSIM REPORT (and all our subsequent common efforts here on Cluesforum) have forced the 9/11 perps to upgrade their production standards and made them launch into high gear, recruiting 1st-rate actors (of which there is no shortage of in Hollywood) as well as 1st rate "reality-TV" directors ?
Utah
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by Utah »

Simon,
Most of the older "MFM interviews" are indeed horribly acted. I agree that it is certainly possible that the perps could simply be hiring better actors since the Vicsim Report exposed this angle of the scam. I am not sold on the Ingrassia parents one way or the other.

I am more puzzled by the fact that 'Chris Ingrassia' seems to have in fact been an accomplished heavyweight high school wrestler in New Jersey in the early nineties. He is listed as the 1990 and 1991 regional heavyweight champion here : http://njwrestlingnews.com/Region3.html and Somerset county heavyweight champion here on his high school's website http://njwrestlingnews.com/Region3.html (in addition to the less significant results in listed in my previous post).

I find it extremely hard to believe that the perps are fudging obscure high school wrestling records from the early 90's, just to backstop a phony victim of relatively little importance. Not impossible, just unlikely. And why does this largely uninteresting vicsim need two talented actors to play his parents, and get three siblings, at least one of which (Anthony) also has an actor assigned to his role?

I think it is more likely that some very small minority of the victims, perhaps including 'Chris Ingrassia', were based on real people. Spooks disappearing/getting new identities seems more likely to me than the murder of random Americans. The overall design of the hoax does seem to rely primarily on victims that are purely digital and have no realistic backstopping or basis in reality.

Do you think it is possible that some of the vicsims represent real identities (i.e. operatives playing dead/reassigned)? Or that some are perhaps based on real identities to help sell the story?
Last edited by Utah on Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fbenario
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by fbenario »

Utah wrote:Do you think it is possible that some of vicsims represent real identities (i.e. operatives playing dead/reassigned)? Or that some are perhaps somehow based on real identities to help sell the story?
On most of these issues you seem to have a clear understanding of the various issues involved with vicsims.

Without any substantial proof that a person existed before 2001 - which necessarily requires evidence proven to have been posted on the internet BEFORE 2001 - why would you waste your time and brain space pondering whether any real people 'disappeared' on 9/11? Why would TPTB bother with this? Much easier to fake all vicsims - no worries about 'surviving' real family members asking questions incessantly.

Did you even bother checking the SSDI before posing this question? While not probative, the lack of an entry might have caused a rethink before asking. (I haven't checked because I don't believe, based on our years of research, anyone died during the 9/11 psyop.)
simonshack
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by simonshack »

Utah wrote:
I find it extremely hard to believe that the perps are fudging obscure high school wrestling records from the early 90's, just to backstop a phony victim of relatively little importance. Not impossible, just unlikely.
Dear Utah,

I find it extremely hard to believe that NOT ONE of Christopher Ingrassia's friends and relatives have posted a Guest Book comment here - in over 10 years!!! : http://www.voicesofseptember11.org/dev/ ... 1259916361

As you can see, it just says: NO GUEST BOOK ENTRIES FOUND

To be sure, the "VOICES OF SEPTEMBER 11" site is the official organization responsible for collecting info on the 9/11 victims for the "9/11 MEMORIAL AND MUSEUM" of Ground Zero, FFS!

Today, I typed an entry to that guest book - but they just won't publish it! > http://www.voicesofseptember11.org/dev/ ... 1259916361

My entry still does not appear there - although I wrote a quite civil and articulate tribute. Try it out for yourself!
reichstag fireman
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by reichstag fireman »

'Real' identities could be harvested from court witnesses who are given assumed identities as part of the witness protection programme. That frees up their old identities for use as terror vicsims. And those in the know - not least the vicsim's original family - will never blow the whistle.

Also, it's likely that for many years, the Apparatus has produced a batch (or should that be a 'hatch'?!) of non-existent births, for use later in statecraft. As a non-existent persona passes into adulthood, fake entries would be inserted automatically into government and corporate databases, to confound any sceptic.
Utah
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by Utah »

fbenario wrote:
Utah wrote:Do you think it is possible that some of vicsims represent real identities (i.e. operatives playing dead/reassigned)? Or that some are perhaps somehow based on real identities to help sell the story?
On most of these issues you seem to have a clear understanding of the various issues involved with vicsims.

Without any substantial proof that a person existed before 2001 - which necessarily requires evidence proven to have been posted on the internet BEFORE 2001 - why would you waste your time and brain space pondering whether any real people 'disappeared' on 9/11? Why would TPTB bother with this? Much easier to fake all vicsims - no worries about 'surviving' real family members asking questions incessantly.

Did you even bother checking the SSDI before posing this question? While not probative, the lack of an entry might have caused a rethink before asking. (I haven't checked because I don't believe, based on our years of research, anyone died during the 9/11 psyop.)
I've never said I believe anyone died in the hoax. That does seem like a liability worth avoiding for orchestrators of this scam. Simon has done an eloquent job of expressing why this rationale best fits the available evidence in the Deconstructing 9/11 article.

As I said, I did find pre-911 high school wrestling records under the same same. I sincerly doubt they are all fake, since the records of indiviual match-ups are fairly obscure. In fact, I think I may very well be the only person in the whole world checking to see if this name is listed. Now, it could just be a coincidence. Any records of vicsims are certainly the exception, not the rule, when one goes digging for this stuff. What I found certainly does not prove much of anything by itself, but I do think it suggests that this vicsim may be based on a formerly genuine identity.

Why would I bother checking the SSDI? Last time I checked it was when the People "Children of 911" issue came out. I found entries for two or three of the ten alledged parent vicsims, but I couldn't find anything else to convince me that that these were real people or even real 'identities'. While most vicsims are not listed, some relatively small percentage of the vicsims do appear in the SSDI. That doesn't mean they were real, does it? What do you think this individual's listing or non-listing in the SSDI would prove?

Why would the TPTB would bother disappearing real people? Why wouldn't they use the opportunity before them? For one, I think it would give their bullshit story a lot more credibility if they can convinve a suburban community in NJ that someone they actually know has died.

Why not use this opportunity to create new identitities, and retire old ones? Just pure speculation, but why wouldn't the perps funnel some deep cover agents through the scam? Have a few new agent recruits as 'plants' in Cantor Fitz, the Fire Department, etc. On the big day, they disappear in to new identities and assignments...

We know the TPTB have all these fake family members, fake eyewitneses, fake 'truth movement' leaders, who are actor/operatives, and who can die in fake events as needed. Why not prop up a few vicsims in a similiar fashion?
Utah
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by Utah »

simonshack wrote:
Dear Utah,

I find it extremely hard to believe that NOT ONE of Christopher Ingrassia's friends and relatives have posted a Guest Book comment here - in over 10 years!!! : http://www.voicesofseptember11.org/dev/ ... 1259916361
Simon,
As you point out, it doesn't work! How could they? :o
But seriously, I'm only saying a real name could have been used for this vicsim. Not that he was killed!

Perhaps a few such name games (or identity exchanges) were set up to muddy the waters around the vicsim issue?
Utah
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by Utah »

Found another dubious pic of Chris Ingrassia:
Image
http://www.nyjnews.com/911victims/view.php?id=1141

The article above claims that Chris lettered in football at Princeton, but he isn't on the school's list of letterwinners or even the team rosters I found for any of the years he was supposedly there! I still don't know what to make of the fact that a high-school wrestler going by 'Chris Inglassia' did leave a trail of verifiable records. But the claims of his college football letters and player status, which are easy to check into, looks like more empty bullshit! Princeton, BTW, boasts 13 vicsims, including Robert McIlvaine Jr.

But the Ingrassia family, it turns out, is fairly well known in New Jersey. Here's brother Anthony:
Image
President of Ingrassia Construction Company, Inc.
Ingrassia Construction Company, Inc. was founded in 1928 by his grandfarther of the same name.
http://www.ingrassiaconstruction.com/
Looks like a legit company. Well, maybe legit isn't the right word. Big construction companies in New Jersey tend to have the reputation of being 'mob' connected.
Anonymouse
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by Anonymouse »

So...I was looking through all the vicsim research and the whole idea of simulated faces reminded me of the composite faces and attractiveness stuff we looked at in psych. It's a while ago, but I'm relatively sure we looked at this study by Valentine, et al. (2004): Why are average faces attractive?

Anyhow, I was wondering about the pool of vicsims, and whether any of them could be derived from composites of each other, or of a family member + unrelated model? Then I looked around the interwebs and found this.

So, I'm not really an expert but I'm wondering firstly whether there's any indication that a "composite face" mechanism could underlie the generation of any of these vicsims; And if so, could a composite face generator be of any use in testing this theory.

Obviously, if it's absurd it's not worth pursuing...so over to the brains trust! :)
brianv
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by brianv »

Utah wrote:Found another dubious pic of Chris Ingrassia:
Image
http://www.nyjnews.com/911victims/view.php?id=1141

The article above claims that Chris lettered in football at Princeton, but he isn't on the school's list of letterwinners or even the team rosters I found for any of the years he was supposedly there! I still don't know what to make of the fact that a high-school wrestler going by 'Chris Inglassia' did leave a trail of verifiable records. But the claims of his college football letters and player status, which are easy to check into, looks like more empty bullshit! Princeton, BTW, boasts 13 vicsims, including Robert McIlvaine Jr.

But the Ingrassia family, it turns out, is fairly well known in New Jersey. Here's brother Anthony:
Image
President of Ingrassia Construction Company, Inc.
Ingrassia Construction Company, Inc. was founded in 1928 by his grandfarther of the same name.
http://www.ingrassiaconstruction.com/
Looks like a legit company. Well, maybe legit isn't the right word. Big construction companies in New Jersey tend to have the reputation of being 'mob' connected.
Yes, I'm the opinion that low-level mobsters are being used to back up the vicsims. Imagine that! The Media, the Goverment and the Military rely on a handful of illiterate scum from New Jersey to operate their scams!
reichstag fireman
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by reichstag fireman »

brianv wrote:
Utah wrote:Looks like a legit company. Well, maybe legit isn't the right word. Big construction companies in New Jersey tend to have the reputation of being 'mob' connected.
Yes, I'm the opinion that low-level mobsters are being used to back up the vicsims. Imagine that! The Media, the Goverment and the Military rely on a handful of illiterate scum from New Jersey to operate their scams!
Perhaps the mobsters' participation is part of a plea bargaining deal?!
hoi.polloi
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

Not to mention "moving van companies", "wedding photographers" and a bunch of other things plagued with espionage and sketchiness.
simonshack
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by simonshack »

*


THE GOLDSTEIN GIRLS' MUSICAL CHAIRS


Sheesh! When are these people...
Image
...going to start paying Cluesforum for what we do? :P


If anyone still had any doubts that VOICES OF SEPTEMBER (the official Ground Zero Memorial website) are among Cluesforum's most assiduous and attentive readers, these doubts should now be dispelled...

Today I looked up once again their listing of the two Goldstein girls, Michelle and Monica. Here's my first post (dated October 7, 2010) which addresses the Goldstein fiasco: http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2261727

Here is my second post (dated September 14, 2011) addressing the Goldstein fiasco: http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2359328


So TO RECAP:

THIS is how the VOICES Memorial listed the two GOLDSTEIN GIRLS - in october 2010 :

Image


THIS is how the VOICES Memorial listed the two GOLDSTEIN GIRLS - in September 2011 :


Image


...aaand THIS is how the VOICES Memorial lists the two GOLDSTEIN GIRLS today - June 2012 :


Image
http://voicesofseptember11.org/dev/memo ... ems=1,6,13

So it took VOICES OF SEPTEMBER over a decade (and our invaluable help :P ) to clean up their GOLDSTEIN mess...
Yet, Monica Goldstein's own purported employer (Cantor Fitzgerald) STILL doesn't have her on their own 9/11 memorial page: http://www.cantorfamilies.com/cantor/js ... .jsp?LNL=G What a pathetic shambles... :rolleyes:

***************************************************************

Longtime Cluesforum members may also recall other occasions when VOICES has 'taken advantage' of our efforts here - to update their decade-old listings of the "9/11 victims". For instance, the MARIA BEHR case... ( see: http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2134609 )

...THIS is what they had up until 2010 for VicSim "MARIA BEHR":


Image

Then, as yours truly found in August 2010 a rare picture of MARIA BEHR on an old, abandoned 9/11 Memorial website...

...THIS is what the VOICES people did: they simply & unashamedly put up the very BEHR portrait that I had unearthed!

Image

But today,as I checked again, they now have 'inexplicably' opted to swap that MARIA BEHR portrait with a different one! (Note also that, for some unfathomable reason, they've also replaced Michael Beekman's portrait with a ...ehrm... "different" one.)

Image
http://voicesofseptember11.org/dev/memo ... ems=1,6,13

So I ask myself: WHEN will the VOICES OF SEPTEMBER boss Mary Fetchet going to send us a cheque - for the archiving support we've been providing for the last few years? <_<
fbenario
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by fbenario »

Utah wrote:Why would the TPTB would bother disappearing real people? Why wouldn't they use the opportunity before them? For one, I think it would give their bullshit story a lot more credibility if they can convinve a suburban community in NJ that someone they actually know has died.

Why not use this opportunity to create new identitities, and retire old ones? Just pure speculation, but why wouldn't the perps funnel some deep cover agents through the scam? Have a few new agent recruits as 'plants' in Cantor Fitz, the Fire Department, etc. On the big day, they disappear in to new identities and assignments...

We know the TPTB have all these fake family members, fake eyewitneses, fake 'truth movement' leaders, who are actor/operatives, and who can die in fake events as needed. Why not prop up a few vicsims in a similiar fashion?
Why would TPTB bother doing any of these things? As I said, it's just too much trouble, with far too many loose ends and potential complications, including real family members, who could rear their heads at any time over many years. Much easier to do it with no real family members to kill because they wouldn't shut up about it at any price. Also, right now no murder charges for 9/11 direct victims can be brought against the perps. (Later deaths overseas in wars are a different question of course.)

By the way, I'm glad you saw that potentially real records of a Chris Inglassia from your past are not evidence of a Chris Ingrassia vicsim.
Utah
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Re: 9/11 Memorial Scams, Vicsims, Etc

Unread post by Utah »

fbenario wrote:
Utah wrote: Why would TPTB bother doing any of these things? As I said, it's just too much trouble, with far too many loose ends and potential complications, including real family members, who could rear their heads at any time over many years. Much easier to do it with no real family members to kill because they wouldn't shut up about it at any price. Also, right now no murder charges for 9/11 direct victims can be brought against the perps. (Later deaths overseas in wars are a different question of course.)

By the way, I'm glad you saw that potentially real records of a Chris Inglassia from your past are not evidence of a Chris Ingrassia vicsim.
Oops on the typo. Don't hate me. The high school wrestling records do say 'Chris Ingrassia'. However, his college football records, at a glance, do not check out.

Either way, this vicsim does have 'real family members' who own a large, real multi-generational construction company in New Jersey (even if they did photoshop Chris into their family pictures and no such person ever existed). Regardless, it makes sense that the family would be participants in the scam. Did I not make it clear before that I agree, no murders makes more sense?

The family, and their construction business is real. This isn't one just one half-decent nobody actor like Bob "truther tears" McIlvaine- like the few vicsims that have any 'family' at all usually get. So I think this is a somewhat unusual case, and worth a closer look.

Is it so outrageous to speculate that a mobster would 'pretend murder' himself to make a few million for the family? Don't mobsters sometimes 'lay low' or 'take a vacation' as part of the normal career path?

I really have no idea if vicsim Chris was ever a real person, or a name made up by the Ingrassia family. But with a big, publicly visible family, inserting a fake sibling into your family history seems just as hard to pull off as disappearing a real family member.

Interestingly, his legacy guestbook has 90 tribute entries, many more realistic-sounding (than a normal vicsim tribute), and a few rather bizarre entries (more traditional vicsim tribute style- first person/odd). Strangely,though, no more photos (not even photoshop clones!) See for yourself:http://www.legacy.com/guestbooks/guestb ... pid=137746
Last edited by Utah on Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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