Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

If NASA faked the moon landings, does the agency have any credibility at all? Was the Space Shuttle program also a hoax? Is the International Space Station another one? Do not dismiss these hypotheses offhand. Check out our wider NASA research and make up your own mind about it all.
heniek1812
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by heniek1812 »

patrix wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:18 am
In my next post I will share some ideas of potential test that I think could be done in a garage.
Looking forward to that heniek and great post. It’s amazing how many people that when asked what will happen if you stand inside a vacuum chamber and releases a balloon, believes the balloon will fly away.
Hi patrix, glad you enjoyed this.

I was raised on a booked titled "Transport Phenomena" by Bird,Stewart and Lightfoot. In the case of "what is going on in vacuum" I can't quite throw everything out of the bathtub WITHOUT having done some testing/experimenting. Thought experiments are good but physical experiments are even better.

1) In the case of the water jet pack that was suggested by Simon
Image
I see one way to do a test to see if the water surface/ground is needed to support the flyer. Have the flyer fly over a surface discontinuity, a water fall or a deep ditch where the water surface suddenly disappears . Then see what happens to the flyer when he finds himself over this. We have two possibilities not much or drops lower down toward the new horizontal surface.

Alternately we (where I am it is freezing) can take a garden hose and start the water at such a rate that if we hold the hose some distance from the water spray we will have the same situation as the water jet pack.
Image
Water jet keeps the end at a constant height.

I have played this game in my younger days, a sort of "walk the dog" trick. Now do this except now over something that is around the house that rapidly goes below the ground level. Where I am we have small windows to the basement below the ground surface level and there is an opening area made of concrete (oil drum would also do the trick). Hence we could walk this "water dog" first on the ground then move the hose so as to locate it over the opening. If the flow rate is constant we should see one of two possibilities, nothing happens or it drops lower :-)

2) Rockets in Open Space. I am in the camp that what I know I know it because I have been told so. We on Earth (the little people) have no contact with this environment. Everything I have learned has been related to things working in our atmosphere. Did something go into Deep deep Space? I have no clue. I was told it did and that is it. Faith Baby Faith.
The experiments with rockets in vacuum on YT are BS. It looks nice but it misses on one fundamental aspect, Scaling Law. If you want to see how and actual rocket (potentially) will work in Open Space you need to scale everything such that the experimental environment will scale-wise come close to (I'm going to get hit here) Open Space. What I would do,
1) Make a tiny rocket
2) Lay it within a glass tube (little friction) with jet sticking out just outside of this tube.
3) Place this inside of a tank the size XXX. XXX would need to be calculated based on rocket size, jet/plume size, etc. so that boundary problems in the first ms of firing would not be an issue. This is where Scaling Law would come into play.
4 Evacuate to ... well as best a vacuum as you can get.
5) High speed cameras
6) Ignite it and observe the first ms of the burn. The rocket has one degree of freedom.

Moving or Not Moving?

3) Now a few words about the discontinuity air-vacuum. I will refer again to this article,
https://vacaero.com/information-resourc ... heory.html
This is not a trivial situation as some people in the Internet would like us to believe. Hell, just reading this should give anyone familiar with thermodynamics, fluid dynamic, mechanics and space communication a pause and a thought "will what I know work there?". Many without blinking say YES they believe that between 1960 and 1969 all issues with traveling to the Moon and back were figured out??? Wow, that is a lot to swallow. I don't buy it.

Now for an experiment. Back again to our water hose. Get a large oil drum and fill it with water. Set a table like surface next to the drum so that water level and the table surface are the same. Now get that hose and do as I said above, "walk the dog". Make sure the "dog" maintains a constant height for the given flow rate. Now walk it from the table to be above the water and then slowly push it toward water surface. What happens?

As I recall the "dog" will get sucked underwater. Like I said I can not do this experiment today but I recall doing this when filling a bucket. I recall always feeling a distinct pulling sensation when doing this. Hence, when in the air the thrust is enough to keep the "dog" at constant height but when contacting water the forces change. I would have to do this again as my memory could be wrong on this. But the experiment would be a good one to see if surface comes into play in the dynamics of the water jet.

Behavior at a "discontinuity" is often very abrupt. That's how ships disappear off the surface of the oceans. How abrupt is this when you are dealing with air-vacuum????
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by Only2perCent »

I have to say, all the proposed here models are overly complex and contain one common but I suspect unforgivable omission. They disregard Gravity. It is a no-go. The matter is, the Gravity is EVERYWHERE. Even the deepest of vacuums is FULL of it.
 
My model is simpler and, at the same time, more comprehensive. It is based on empirical evidence, as well. It consists of the following:

A rocket needs air-resistance to fly. The pointy nose, the stabilizers, and the engine pushing from behind (first against the ground, then against the air), create direction and back-pressure, sufficient to lift the weight of the "spaceship", so it flies up. At a height, where the air is too thin to push against sufficiently, the ship continues moving up by inertia for a while, but then ALWAYS falls back. The Gravity, you know ...

In a hypothetical example, when the rocket is already in a vacuum, following the pattern, where the infamous Converging Nozzle opens wider as the air becomes thinner, it theoretically must open 360 degrees to fly in Zero air-pressure. In other words, the Free Expansion reigns! The proverbial thruster will blow equally in all directions, including the one the rocket was supposedly going. No forward movement, rotation maybe, because nothing is perfect. But that is not all. We forgot Gravity! From the observational starting point, the rocket will be continuously falling in the direction of the strongest Center of Gravity until it reaches the thick layer of the atmosphere if any, and God knows what might happen then.
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by simonshack »

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Dear all,

About a year ago, I posted this summary of one decade of Cluesforum research exposing the Great Space Travel Hoax:


In that post I had embedded an old Youtube video featuring Robert Zubrin - which is now gone.

So I've replaced it with this more recent speech by the jewish space salesman:


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Mu8qfVb5I

Now, please show the above video to your friends and family - and ask them this brief question: "WOULD YOU BUY A USED CAR FROM ROBERT ZUBRIN"?

Let me know what sort of replies you get ! :)
aa5
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by aa5 »

Yep if you were to open a compressed gas into a vacuum, the gas would simply flow out in perfect harmony at the speed of light according to Joule's Law of Free Expansion. Almost instantaneously the entire tank of compressed gas would be emptied and there would be no backwards force against the tank, as no energy was utilized, hence 'Free Expansion'. Its one of the interesting and exploitable properties of gases. (that is when engineers were interested in exploiting different laws of nature, instead of just denying them and saying everything is equal which is quite a nihilistic and wrong point of view, although popular belief today that no matter what you do everything turns out equal anyways, see cultural relativism and moral relativism.)

Why this idea is so popular among engineers and people, that no matter what you do it all turns out equal . . . is it means they don't need to use any creativity or thinking as nothing in net can ever be gained. It’s like in India fatalism is a very popular belief. Fatalism in India means if you were meant to be rich, you will be rich regardless of if you try or not. And if their Gods deemed you to be poor you will end up poor no matter what you do. It means you don't have to try at all, and you can not feel guilty about not trying.

In the real world people who put in many years of effort, applying their thinking and creativity in the pursuit of wealth, manifestly become wealthier on average than people who just sit on the couch. That is a very unpopular belief among people even in our Western countries, and people will be sure to point out exceptions such as other people who inherited a fortune or others who put in many years of effort but ended up bankrupt anyway. People just want to sit on the couch - which hey I am not against that and do that most of the time lol.

To give another example Simon's profound advances in Astronomy didn't happen out of nowhere. It took years of his energy and creativity and curiosity. Maybe a better philosophy is, ok, the Gods and Goddesses can guide you towards your destiny by your curiosities and interests.
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by simonshack »

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Dear all,

The other day Patrik and I were invited to talk about the Grand Space Travel Hoax - on Nigel Howitt's "Lawful Rebel" podcast.

Enjoy ! It's high time for all thinking people to wrap their heads around the fact that no rockets can exit our planet's atmosphere. :)


full link: https://www.bitchute.com/video/e3rJG1uwttg/

ps: sorry for my somewhat unarticulate speech delivery - I was suffering from a darn painful shoulder inflammation which is now fortunately gone...
Newsbender
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by Newsbender »

On July 20, 2021, Jeff Bezos and his merry band - "Mark Bezos, his brother, Wally Funk, an 82-year-old pioneer of the space race :blink: , and an 18-year-old student" - allegedly made a short trip into space in Bezo's suspiciously-shaped, risibly top-heavy rocket, the New Shepard.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSa15E077fc

At 3:18 in, the commentator says "unreal".... I couldn't have put it better myself. It looks like another typical bad CGI fest to me, with the exception that this time the rocket looks even more phallic than usual - a fact that has not gone unnoticed by many YouTubers, who have drawn comparisons with the famous double entendre rocket scene in Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me:


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDt5moeu4_c

The open mockery and archaic, bizarre sense of humor of the Nutwork continues.

If this was such an historic event, why was there no cockpit camera showing Bezos? Could it simply be that multi-billionaires value their privacy? Or could it be because the whole thing was completely fabricated and that would have been too difficult to fake? (all rhetorical questions, naturally).

There are some very strange CGI glitches going on in these shots as the men with "the wrong stuff" board their ludicrous vessel:


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFsHPLzGDSE

UPDATE: there IS video of Bezos in the cockpit. Submitted without words:


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dwfx8IdMds
nokidding
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by nokidding »

In contrast Richard Branson's effort looked genuine. It's a kind of tacit admission that all manned orbit missions are fake, because if not the whole Virgin Galactic enterprise would be too trivial to bother with. Branson's 86 Km altitude (still below the Harman Kardon line) may be a record if Alan Shepard's 160 Km was faked. He cocked a snoot.

I like to think that Alan Shepard's Mercury flight was real, the limit and the last genuine mission, but who can ever know when everything that followed was lies.
memoryhole
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by memoryhole »

Newsbender wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:01 am
UPDATE: there IS video of Bezos in the cockpit. Submitted without words:


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dwfx8IdMds
My favourite part of the last video is between 1:08 and 1:12 when a floating skittle bounces off the window and magically accelerates and then decelerates again. Reminded me of "Some Birds".
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by simonshack »

Newsbender wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:01 am There are some very strange CGI glitches going on in these shots as the men with "the wrong stuff" board their ludicrous vessel:
Oh my gosh - that ain't Bezos boarding the Big Dick, 'tis bloody Breivik! They're all gonna die! :P

Image

viewtopic.php?p=2386599&sid=d1a908b88ff ... 1#p2386599
pov603
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by pov603 »

Almost like this even…

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJFog1vE6Ck
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by Newsbender »

nokidding wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:18 pm I like to think that Alan Shepard's Mercury flight was real, the limit and the last genuine mission, but who can ever know when everything that followed was lies.
And if it wasn't real, then the New Shepard would be a wonderfully apt name for a rocket pulling the same old scam again - wouldn't it? (Of course, the same could also be said if both were real.)
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by simonshack »

nokidding wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:18 pm I like to think that Alan Shepard's Mercury flight was real, the limit and the last genuine mission, but who can ever know when everything that followed was lies.
I'd say that's some wishful thinking, dear nokidding... -_-

Chris Kraft ("NASA Mercury flight control" manager) - at 6:30 into this short NASA movie:
"You couldn't have told the difference between a flight and a simulation." https://youtu.be/etWdJoXrajA?t=392

Image

NASA = A HOLLYWOOD PRODUCTION FOR TV VIEWERS - ever since Day1 - and from A to Z.
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by glg »

Image

Image

:blink: :puke:
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by simonshack »

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"Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?"


Dear Cluesforum members and readers,

On May 25, 2022 this important thread ("Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?") will celebrate its 9th Anniversary - and will soon reach 1 million views. :)

I dare say that our collective intellectual efforts have determined - beyond reasonable doubt - that rocketry can certainly NOT work beyond the Earth's atmosphere. I hereby wish to warmly thank all of the most acute and articulate contributors to this most important exposure which, of course, spells the end of NASA's credibility - and of all their complicit space agencies around the world.

I also dare say that our longstanding investigations - here at Cluesforum - to expose the GSTH (the Great Space Travel Hoax) have been of the 'pioneering' kind, so let's be proud of this and hope that future historians will give us some credit for it! ^_^ To be sure, back in 2013 (as this very thread "came to life"), there was - to my knowledge - hardly ANY discussion to be found on the internets regarding the fact that rockets cannot travel beyond our Earth's atmosphere. In later years though, I've kept bumping into some fine writings (at various websites & in the social media ) in support of our findings.

For instance, here's an excellent, no-nonsense comment (by a Youtube user, "Dr. David Banner F.E.S.") which succinctly expounds why rockets will not move in space:
"I think its easier just to see it as water under pressure inside of an object, and then a valve is opened allowing that water to escape. In atmosphere the water first in line to escape is immediately slowed down due to the resistance the atmosphere has on its path of travel. So the water now coming out of the object runs into the slower moving water which exited first, and pushes it out of the way, and provides a thrust or force to push the object in the other direction, because the object itself has something coming out of it, that is pushing other stuff out its way.

In space this cannot be, because the water coming out of the object never gets slowed down by an atmospheric pressure....space doesn't offer any resistance to it's path of travel exiting the object. So the water first in line to leave the object is moving at exactly the same speed as the water currently leaving the object, and so the water currently leaving the object never encounters slower moving water to push out of the way, and so the object doesn't have any forward thrust....Because it doesn't have anything coming out of it that is pushing anything out its way. That simple.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BsrzO7aXNs
The above comment by Dr. David Banner inspired me today to make the below graphic which, as always, I invite allcomers to try and disprove. :)

Image

The funniest thing is that, when NASA advocates claim that rockets "push on their own fuel", they are actually (almost) correct! Indeed, rockets do push on their own fuel - but only when it impacts air molecules in the atmosphere!

It is high time for everyone to realize and accept the fact that the 'Hollywood department' known as "NASA" has been fooling this planet's population ever since its inception (in 1958). It should thus come as no surprise that NASA's very first director (i.e. T. Keith Glennan) was a former studio manager at the Paramount and the Samuel Goldwyn cinema studios: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1735
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Re: Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

Unread post by simonshack »

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CAN ROCKETS MOVE IN THE VOID OF SPACE?


Imagine a man (let's call him '"Joe") rowing in a rowing boat full of wine barrels. Joe is struggling to move upstream on a river moving downhill towards the sea. His arms apply a force on the oars which, of course, is transmitted to the water. We may compare the force of the river's flow (against which our Joe is "fighting" against) to the Earth's gravity. Joe is an extremely strong man, but he is only making slow progress due to the mighty force of the river's flow - yet he plunges his oars in the water as deep as he can in order to move upstream. All of a sudden, Joe falls backwards and loses his oars.

Image

Fortunately, on the river bank, a rocket scientist is watching the scene. As he notices Joe's distress, he shouts to him: "THROW YOUR BARRELS OUT OF THE BACK OF THE BOAT AS FAST AS YOU CAN - AND YOU WILL KEEP MOVING FORWARD AS FAST AS BEFORE!"... Well, you might laugh at this little saga, dear readers - but this is precisely what NASA is telling us: their rockets do not push against air (just like oars push on water). Instead, rockets supposedly escape from the Earth's gravity - moving at hypersonic speeds - just by throwing mass out of their back. This ejected mass, they tell us, transmits an 'equal and opposite' (action>reaction) recoil force onto the rocket, thus propelling it at hypersonic speeds - even in the absence of atmosphere. And yes, most people actually believe in this silly and outlandish fairy tale! :rolleyes:

I will be patiently wating for anyone willing to argue that my above example is 'not comparable' to the notion of the concept of rocket propulsion (in the void of space) - as claimed by NASA. How about our old forum member "Heiwa" (a.k.a. Anders Björkman) - who still believes that rockets can propel themselves in the void of space?
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