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1. Yes I think that dendrochronology is probably a reasonably legitimate dating tool. We can empirically observe trees growing and the effect that weather has on the annual growing pattern. Ice core samples are based on a similar idea, but with possibly rather less refinement, where ice core layer samples corroborate tree rings in terms of dating historical “events” --- like cold growing seasons, cold winters and volcanic dust fallout etc. that is quite interesting for me. As long as the investigators presenting this kind of evidence are being honest of course. Rock layers appear to be the least refined of the three ideas but things like magnetic pole reversal information, sea fossils at altitude above sea level, etc., could point to some major catastrophes in the past. Possibly during human history.fbenario wrote:Velikovsky's alternate historical timeline is quite possibly the area and intellectual question that most excites me. You posted above at great length on Velikovsky, but you didn't actually comment on that alternate timeline's legitimacy.
1. Since we agree that carbon-14 can't be used as proof of any event or item, what scientific tools do you think can actually be used as dating methods? Do you think dendrochronology is a legitimate dating tool? If not, why? Ice core samples? Can ANY historical dating method be used with authority? If not, does that render all of history invalid?
2. Do you think Velikovsky's alternative historical timeline is legitimate? If you do, which historical eras and events, specifically, do you think might never have occurred at all?
Andrew, since Hoi wants this thread to return to its central theses on the solar system, planets, NASA, and the earth, please quote the entirety of this post of mine as part of your response; then make that forthcoming response of yours on this issue the very first post in a new thread called something like 'The Problems With Historical Dating Methods'.
In advance, thank you so, so much for your time on this question! It means a lot to me - both your time and this question!
I would not be particularly surprised if modern “human history” was longer than say 30,000 years ago, for Cro-Magnon type humanoids (quite possibly interbreeding with and) apparently replacing Neanderthal types in Europe. Any stories handed down by word of mouth (before writing), concerning any catastrophes (serious floods etc.) would rapidly get scrambled and distorted within a few decades or centuries, I would imagine. I have no reason to think that humanoids of say about 12,000 years ago were significantly different from modern humans.
2. I do not pretend to be an expert on Velikovsky but from what I can see about his alleged ideas so far, he looks to me to be a (rather typical) lying, or just plain nuts, Zionist Khazar. The OT bible appears to me to be an apparently plagiarised set of allegories. Not history. I am not in the least bit surprised if archaeology cannot corroborate allegorical stories found in the Old Testament.
I don’t regard more modern allegories like the legends of King Arthur or Robin Hood as history either. I don’t think that there was ever a human being called “Jesus” born to a divinely artificially inseminated “virgin” called “Mary” around 2000 years ago. To talk about the Bible as though it was genuine “history” is, to me, like talking about the 7 “Good Versus Evil” allegorical “Harry Potter” books as though they were history. Allegory is not history.
It is very easy for “history” to be rewritten. We can see that the modern “news reports” are all spin and bullshit. Sadly future so-called “history” books may be written using our current “news reports” as “fact” rather than the total fiction that they are. All very Orwellian and 1984! Do I trust the motives of Zionist Khazars who seek to “rewrite history” like the Zionist Khazar Immanuel Velikovsky appeared to want to do? Not in the slightest!
The “astrological witchcraft” of religious cults like Judaism, Christianity and Islam are very clearly (to me) based on allegory. Jesus the sun god was allegorically crucified on the Crux Constellation (now seen on the Masonic flags of Australia & New Zealand) --- he was never genuinely executed by Romans on a wooden cross. His mother was the divine feminine Goddess of Isis, Mary, Venus-Lucifera, The Queen of Heaven. His father was Jehovah, Baal, Osiris or Allah the Moon God. “His” message of peace and love was interesting. End of story.
"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun." Thomas Paine
I just watched “Snow White and the Huntsman” on DVD and I was highly amused by all of the allegorical astrological witchcraft references, but this legend of Snow White is not real history either, it is just another religious allegory. An amusingly fairly anti-Christian allegory at that, in this particular iteration!
Velikovsky appeared to be saying that the Bible was “genuine history” and that is just plain silly, in my opinion.
Of course it is possible to mind-program many (most?) humans to believe that almost anything is “true” when it is not true. Just look at North Korea and how those poor people are mind-programmed, in their millions, to endure a state of affairs that they really ought not to want to endure. Just look at how most Americans are mind-programmed to believe that the USA is the “Greatest country on Earth” and that Americans actually, genuinely, walked on the Moon in 1969! Bizarre, weird, almost funny, if it was not so tragic!
I am not sure what Velikovsky might be on about if he is bringing in physics and celestial mechanics to his theories concerning history. It might well be that the 7 sky gods of the 7 days of the week (Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus & Saturn) have influenced religious myths, legends and allegories over the last few thousand years, so he has possibly misinterpreted what these ancient astrological witchcraft superstitions were going on about, when he was comparing various religious mythologies to try to construct a new historical timeline, based on myth.
I am not really interested in this guy Velikovsky, but you apparently are. I don’t know what particular aspect of his weird ideas you are most interested in. If you want to ask me a specific question and my opinion about his “revised timeline” with reference to a specific alleged event in history, then please be more specific. Otherwise I will have to generalise. Please remember that I cannot read your mind. I don’t regard the Bible as a “history book” at all. Questions based on the Bible “as history” mean absolutely nothing to me.
Do I think that the Roman Empire peak happened about 2000 years ago? Yes, I think that it probably did. Do I think that several hundred years of Western European history were “invented” and that the Roman Empire peak was thus actually much less 2000 years ago? I doubt it. I suppose that it might have been technically possible to pull off a hoax like that, several hundred years ago, which then got stuck, but I haven’t seen any really compelling evidence for this idea yet. Do you have any compelling evidence for this idea?