Influences of Israel and Zionism

[hoi.polloi]

nonhocapito,

Yeah, all that Jewishness you describe - what is it really?

Is it people like the peaceful of the Hasidic Jews who protest the creation of Israel?

Is it all the hapless people born into Israel and are fed with daily propaganda so that they know nothing else of the world but Israel's militaristic aims - just like the USA?

Is it all those who converted to Judaism generations ago, though their blood is from all over the world?

You can't say "people are trying to squash the Jewish picture" or "people don't understand how much the banks and media are owned by JEWWWWWS" because it really doesn't say a fucking thing. Likewise with the entire country of Israel. I don't blame innocent civilians born into a propaganda system in Israel, UK or USA. The problem lies in the propaganda.

Of the three major Abrahamic religions in the world - what population are Jewish, Christian or Muslim? Really. Think about how useless it is to blame a world religion - even an extremist form of it.

We must get into the nitty gritty and be dissatisfied with these labels - like "Anglophile" too - now Jewish Zionist Bankers is getting closer to just one of the problems, but if that's so, what are their names?

[Dcopymope]

nonhocapito,

Yeah, all that Jewishness you describe - what is it really?

Is it people like the peaceful of the Hasidic Jews who protest the creation of Israel?

Is it all the hapless people born into Israel and are fed with daily propaganda so that they know nothing else of the world but Israel's militaristic aims - just like the USA?

Is it all those who converted to Judaism generations ago, though their blood is from all over the world?

You can't say "people are trying to squash the Jewish picture" or "people don't understand how much the banks and media are owned by JEWWWWWS" because it really doesn't say a fucking thing. Likewise with the entire country of Israel. I don't blame innocent civilians born into a propaganda system in Israel, UK or USA. The problem lies in the propaganda.

Of the three major Abrahamic religions in the world - what population are Jewish, Christian or Muslim? Really. Think about how useless it is to blame a world religion - even an extremist form of it.

We must get into the nitty gritty and be dissatisfied with these labels - like "Anglophile" too - now Jewish Zionist Bankers is getting closer to just one of the problems, but if that's so, what are their names?

From my viewpoint the term 'Anglophile' is correct in that the entire system of America, Israel and most importantly the U.N stems from the British system. The center of London is technically still the center of the empire, it just expanded under different guises, calling their institutions different names. For example, as I explain in the CFR thread, the Council on Foreign Relations is only a branch of the Royal Institute of International Affairs in London at Chatham House. People think that the CIA is headquartered in Washington only because it claims its so, yet if you go into the history of the CIA you'll see that when it was called the 'OSS' it was also headquartered in London at Chatham House during WW2, which Carroll makes known in 'Tragedy & Hope'. This was also clearly shown in the movie "The Good Shepherd". So America very clearly gets its marching orders from the ruling establishment in Britain. If we want to put a religions tag on the establishment itself, we could say that their real religion is eugenics, which are the bases for this whole system. They only hide behind Abrahamic religions to put on a fa?ade that their “just like us”.

[nonhocapito]

nonhocapito,

Yeah, all that Jewishness you describe - what is it really?

Is it people like the peaceful of the Hasidic Jews who protest the creation of Israel?

Is it all the hapless people born into Israel and are fed with daily propaganda so that they know nothing else of the world but Israel's militaristic aims - just like the USA?

Is it all those who converted to Judaism generations ago, though their blood is from all over the world?

You can't say "people are trying to squash the Jewish picture" or "people don't understand how much the banks and media are owned by JEWWWWWS" because it really doesn't say a fucking thing. Likewise with the entire country of Israel. I don't blame innocent civilians born into a propaganda system in Israel, UK or USA. The problem lies in the propaganda.

Of the three major Abrahamic religions in the world - what population are Jewish, Christian or Muslim? Really. Think about how useless it is to blame a world religion - even an extremist form of it.

We must get into the nitty gritty and be dissatisfied with these labels - like "Anglophile" too - now Jewish Zionist Bankers is getting closer to just one of the problems, but if that's so, what are their names?

Well, funny how if you talk about "the jews" (I don't think I did, not the "jewish people" as a whole, but only a particular ideological denomination that hides behind the supposed interests of the jewish people), you get this "banks and media are owned by the JEWWWWS" common place.

I think in other posts as well I made clear that this is not my stance. i have nothing against jews or jewishness, if anything in my experience I felt many of them had a lot against my culture and history.

I don't know who's behind what. But I don't understand how it is OK to blame the british for everything, but as soon as you mention the supremacist zionist jews who think, in the words of Rabbi Shas ( http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/adl ... s-1.320235 ), that the non-jews are on this planet to serve them, you are dwelling in some meaningless commonplace.

You ask *me* for names? Why not asking those who believe the british are in control, if they also think that Prince Charles actually controls anything and take decisions that affect anybody (or, if not, who are the British names that control the world?)

But seriously, where in my words, in this post or others, have I blamed jewishness and the jewish people? Are you not falling into their favorite defense mechanism right here, blaming it all on anti-semitism?

Tell you what. After decades of brainstorming, I think we are just not accustomed to the idea that "they" can be in the ugly pictures as well, along with italians, russians and americans.

[hoi.polloi]

Personally, I think this is exactly why we have to avoid the labeling.

"The Nutwork" is safe because we don't fall into arguments at all about which specific Jews or which specific Britons or Anglo-Saxons or what-have-you are in charge. It is an ineffective symbol but it is at least as ambiguous as we are forced to assume it is.

You can say what you want about us not naming specific names (certain rich Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the Zionist Israeli dual-citizens in the PNAC, Ed Eberhart and the pig-headed maroon Robert Michael Gates or whatever notwithstanding) but let's not get anxious about us not naming names when we don't have any evidence.

Simon is right that this whole argument is nothing but that until we can actually pull paycheck records up and see "oh Howard Lutnick just got a cash check for 80,000,000 from Peter Munk" or something - then we have something.

All we have right now are the names behind the 7/7 and 9/11 hoaxes. Who is behind that is like asking who is the mafia boss. And everyone knows that information is always the most private and secretive in these groups. We just don't know who it is!

[nonhocapito]

Personally, I think this is exactly why we have to avoid the labeling.

"The Nutwork" is safe because we don't fall into arguments at all about which specific Jews or which specific Britons or Anglo-Saxons or what-have-you are in charge. It is an ineffective symbol but it is at least as ambiguous as we are forced to assume it is.

You can say what you want about us not naming specific names (certain rich Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the Zionist Israeli dual-citizens in the PNAC, Ed Eberhart and the pig-headed maroon Robert Michael Gates or whatever notwithstanding) but let's not get anxious about us not naming names when we don't have any evidence.

Simon is right that this whole argument is nothing but that until we can actually pull paycheck records up and see "oh Howard Lutnick just got a cash check for 80,000,000 from Peter Munk" or something - then we have something.

All we have right now are the names behind the 7/7 and 9/11 hoaxes. Who is behind that is like asking who is the mafia boss. And everyone knows that information is always the most private and secretive in these groups. We just don't know who it is!

Fair enough, I agree. I only feel compelled to intervene on this topic when I get the feeling, maybe a wrong feeling, that somehow we want to "decide" once and for all what makes the pyramid, what's on top of it (if a one pyramid even exist), leaving out or belittling certain parts that I feel are important as well, if not crucial.

This happens only as I perceive an excessive of sureness on someone else's part and feel compelled to balance it -- and as I do this I make the same mistake from the other side, expressing myself with excessive sureness about things I only have hunches about.

Anyway, while the research is the one really important life-changing thing that happens on this forum, it is very stimulating to speculate on the backgrounds and I hope we can continue our polemics on this. As long as we all remain open to the intricacies and the possibilities --and I am giving this advice to myself first.

[simonshack]

"The Nutwork" is safe because we don't fall into arguments at all about which specific Jews or which specific Britons or Anglo-Saxons or what-have-you are in charge. It is an ineffective symbol but it is at least as ambiguous as we are forced to assume it is.

No - "The Nutwork" is neither a "safe" nor an "ambiguous" term. It is a sarcastically jovial, yet all-encompassing label I give to the vermin controlling this world with their stolen wealth. From the insanely greedy, Norwegian idiots bowing down to their foreign masters, handing out the Nobel Peace Prize to the most warmongering rats of this world... To the insanely greedy idiots ruling the very country I live in - and used to love: Italy. To the self-anointed 'upper-classists', the insanely greedy and talentless Anglos, Americans, Frenchmen, Poles, Swedes, Spaniards, Dutch, Hungarians, Saudis, Israelis, Chinese, Danes, etc...etc... who have learned nothing from the brains and wisdom of their countries' brightest thinkers, philosophers and artists. Oh I know - I'll surely be labeled a 'neo-commie' for these humane, 'old-fashioned' thoughts of mine... :lol:

If this planet is in such a bad shape, it is because of the insanely greedy and power-obsessed individuals it harbors. I don't blame anyone for trying to pinpoint exactly who they are, one by one. We have clearly done a lot of this, right here on this forum - and anyone stating the contrary has not been following the research with proper attention. Let's keep at it: if you ask me, I'll put Chief Medical Officer of NY Charles Hirsch (for 9/11) and Australian ex-prime minister John Howard (for 7/7) on top of the long list of co-conspirators and felons that this forum's plucky investigations have comprehensively exposed.

[WTF]

It is safe to say that the anglo-american-establishment is strongly compartmentalized and directed by the money monopoly oligarchs who are the only ones knowing the real agenda! END THE FED!

[hoi.polloi]

"The Nutwork" is safe because we don't fall into arguments at all about which specific Jews or which specific Britons or Anglo-Saxons or what-have-you are in charge. It is an ineffective symbol but it is at least as ambiguous as we are forced to assume it is.

No - "The Nutwork" is neither a "safe" nor an "ambiguous" term. It is a sarcastically jovial, yet all-encompassing label I give to the vermin controlling this world with their stolen wealth. From the insanely greedy, Norwegian idiots bowing down to their foreign masters, handing out the Nobel Peace Prize to the most warmongering rats of this world... To the insanely greedy idiots ruling the very country I live in - and used to love: Italy. To the self-anointed 'upper-classists', the insanely greedy and talentless Anglos, Americans, Frenchmen, Poles, Swedes, Spaniards, Dutch, Hungarians, Saudis, Israelis, Chinese, Danes, etc...etc... who have learned nothing from the brains and wisdom of their countries' brightest thinkers, philosophers and artists. Oh I know - I'll surely be labeled a 'neo-commie' for these humane, 'old-fashioned' thoughts of mine... :lol:

If this planet is in such a bad shape, it is because of the insanely greedy and power-obsessed individuals it harbors. I don't blame anyone for trying to pinpoint exactly who they are, one by one. We have clearly done a lot of this, right here on this forum - and anyone stating the contrary has not been following the research with proper attention. Let's keep at it: if you ask me, I'll put Chief Medical Officer of NY Charles Hirsch (for 9/11) and Australian ex-prime minister John Howard (for 7/7) on top of the long list of co-conspirators and felons that this forum's plucky investigations have comprehensively exposed.

The Nutwork is something you made up about some people that are supposed to be real. It is an empty container.

"Israeli" and "British" are not empty containers to most people. They are subdivisions of humanity with stereotypes pretty, ugly, false and true and people can imagine what that is instantly, even if it is a racist or prejudiced idea. It helps us narrow down what is inside this Nutwork as you call it by keeping these traits in mind when trying to draw social connections between apparently dissonant perps.

I agree we should keep pushing for more specifics, and you are going to say that it's not an ambiguous term to use but I still say it is ambiguous to most people.

If you want to blame the Greedy, then that is another story. That is a real word that really is frequently used in the English language and is condemned by all major religions on some level (though they may also endorse it hypocritically at times.)

You can try to push a term for the hidden mafia or cartel or whatever you want to call it and you can call it the Nutwork, but if that's not ambiguous to you - it might be to other people.

We are better off when we have names of individuals who are clearly responsible for perpetuating this false and errant war on "terror" or "big government" or whatever the next villain is by these people. I see your Charles Hirsch and John Howard, and I raise you an Alex Jones, Richard Gage and David Ray Griffin. :P

[Dcopymope]

It is safe to say that the anglo-american-establishment is strongly compartmentalized and directed by the money monopoly oligarchs who are the only ones knowing the real agenda! END THE FED!

Well knowing that the CFR and the RIIA are in of themselves fronts for a secret society started up by Cecil Rhodes and his crime buddies, I would say that ALL institutions of all types are front groups for secret societies, many of which we will never know of unless more Carroll Quigley types come out and expose it. Just think of the world as connected and controlled through a web of secret societies that all have specific purposes. They all hide behind charity or foundations, like freemasonry. It’s a system within the system where the ruling establishment can operate under the radar. This issue of secret societies running whole countries is obviously well understood, because a bill was introduced in Ukraine that would jail anyone belonging to any of these types of organizations, especially public servants (police, military etc), because you cannot trust anyone who have sworn an oath of secrecy to "societies with secrets" as they call them in public positions of power. The day this happens in America is the day I'll start taking elections seriously as a solution to any of our problems, because at the moment, they select the politicians we elect into office well in advance, long before we've even heard of them.

Case in point: George Bush and John Kerry both Skull and Bones members

And we're supposed to believe that this was just a coincidence, and shouldn't have been treated with suspicion. If I'm going to give my legal consent to anyone to rule over me and pass laws that affect me and my family, I want to know everything about that individual, every single organization he's ever belonged to or sworn an oath to and who finances him should be made public for all to see. No secrecy shall be tolerated from any public servant.

Ukrainian Parliamentarian Suggests Jailing Freemasons

Ukrainian MP Taras Chornovil has suggested that the country’s parliament, the Supreme Rada, introduce criminal responsibility for Freemasonry, the MigNews web-site reported on Tuesday.

Taras Chornovil is the son of the late nationalist leader Vyacheslav Chornovil, and his appointment as an adviser to presidential candidate Viktor Yanukovich on West-Ukrainian affairs earlier this year provoked much criticism in nationalist circles. He will head Yanukovich’s campaign headquarters in the repeat of the controversial second round of Ukrainian presidential elections.

He has submitted to the Rada a bill entitled "On amendments to the Criminal Code of Ukraine", according to which, membership of Freemason organizations, or any other organizations that require rituals and oaths of higher priority than the current law, must be punished by a jail sentence of up to three years.

The bill also reads that the members of Masonic organizations who are Ukrainian civil servants, law enforcers or military servicemen must be jailed for three to seven years. Ukraine’s president, members of parliament, civil servants of ministerial rank, military servicemen and law enforcers of the rank of major-general or higher, if discovered to be members of Freemason organizations, may face up to 10 years in prison.

If the membership in a Masonic organization causes deaths, a threat to Ukraine’s national integrity or its defense potential, members of the organization must be imprisoned for 10 to 15 years, the bill reads.

In February, the leader of Ukraine’s Socialist Party, Aleksander Moroz, said that about 300 of Ukraine’s top officials were members of the St. Stanislaus Order Masonic Lodge. Later, other left-wing parties and also the pro-Western bloc headed by Yulia Tymoshenko also called on the government to ban the St. Stanislaus Order in Ukraine.

[nonhocapito]

We are better off when we have names of individuals who are clearly responsible for perpetuating this false and errant war on "terror" or "big government" or whatever the next villain is by these people. I see your Charles Hirsch and John Howard, and I raise you an Alex Jones, Richard Gage and David Ray Griffin. :P

The problem with "naming names" is that this too can give a false sense of achievement and security.

By now it would be incredibly easy for example to seemingly "prove" Mossad involvement in the planning of 9/11. One would start by analyzing the history of Mossad, an organization that basically uses false-flag operations as its trademark, and one would go on by just listing names and connections of Israel-supporters and Zionist right-wing supremacists who sit in high offices in the U.S. government and in ALL the corporations and in wall street. They are everywhere now as they were on 9/11 and before, and they all agree on one thing, Israel must be supported.

James Schlesinger - Lewis M. Eisenberg - Larry Silverstein - Michael Chertoff - Dov Zakheim - Jerome M. Hauer - Stephen Cauffman - Michael Mukasey - Richard Perle - Paul Wolfowitz - Jack Abramoff etc. etc.
or on the other side Amy Goodman - Alex Jones - Webster Tarpley - Dave von Kleist - Jason Bermas etc. etc.

It is something, right? Yet I am not very confident with this exercise.

The problem is that by listing names one lists *connections*. Too bad the world of lobbying and politics and finance is teeming with connections in all directions, and it is just plain difficult for us who are outside to judge whether one connection is relevant or just incidental. One could virtually "decide" that connections with Zionists are the most relevant, and those with Britons are just "smoke and mirrors": and one could do the opposite. Both decisions are going one step too far.

On the other hand I think the relevance of "names" must also be supported by an exercise of observation of reality, and in our case of the *effects* of 9/11 in the world scenario.
I agree that many things we watch and witness and hear of are a product of the media, and as such they are like the bubbles of an ongoing submarine battle coming to the surface.
Yet these bubbles are something we all base our observations on every day.

Today the U.S. and Britain do not seem to be in any way stronger or more respected than before 9/11. All the contrary. They have to make concessions and pay debts with China and excuse themselves for their "mistakes" of war, just like it happened with Vietnam. (The CIA-front Wikileaks is there to help with the process, apparently).
In the meantime the attention is diverted from Israel, which is having basically green light as the western front in the fight with Islam, and its desiderata fulfilled.
I mean, this inference can be misleading too, but it does say something about the state of the world and it must be taken into account, as we weight the relevance of the "names".

[hoi.polloi]

The problem with "naming names" is that this too can give a false sense of achievement and security.

Of course it can. Has anyone here ever said "We did it! We've won! David Ray Griffin is exposed! We can all hang up our hats now. Bye."

No. Nobody has.

You just keep taking it personally that nobody is buying your problem with Zionist Jews and thinking they are mainly responsible above others.

You may as well "warn" us against doing any further research. Gosh, the problem with uncovering TV fakery is that it gives us a false sense of achievement about uncovering TV fakery!

No sh#t Sherlock.

Are you being a maroon on purpose?

Why can't you just accept that insisting "Israel did it!" is stupider than naming actual names of people who perpetrated the propaganda crimes. What is your hang up? You can't stand being called out about the uselessness of blaming a swath of population?

Sheesh. Just accept that we don't know who did it, and that the investigation goes at the pace it goes. We are slow. We are volunteers. There is no money coming in to pay us to do this research and there are no whistleblowers who care about us little guys so either do some research and prove your case or you just look like someone obsessed with blaming something or someone before it is documented.

Prove your case and stop complaining that people don't "get" it.

[nonhocapito]

The problem with "naming names" is that this too can give a false sense of achievement and security.

Of course it can. Has anyone here ever said "We did it! We've won! David Ray Griffin is exposed! We can all hang up our hats now. Bye."

No. Nobody has.

You just keep taking it personally that nobody is buying your problem with Zionist Jews and thinking they are mainly responsible above others.

You may as well "warn" us against doing any further research. Gosh, the problem with uncovering TV fakery is that it gives us a false sense of achievement about uncovering TV fakery!

No sh#t Sherlock.

Are you being a maroon on purpose?

Why can't you just accept that insisting "Israel did it!" is stupider than naming actual names of people who perpetrated the propaganda crimes. What is your hang up? You can't stand being called out about the uselessness of blaming a swath of population?

Sheesh. Just accept that we don't know who did it, and that the investigation goes at the pace it goes. We are slow. We are volunteers. There is no money coming in to pay us to do this research and there are no whistleblowers who care about us little guys so either do some research and prove your case or you just look like someone obsessed with blaming something or someone before it is documented.

Prove your case and stop complaining that people don't "get" it.

Whoa, I don't think I was taking anything personally.

I don't understand why you suggest that I devalue the research on media fakery merely because I underlined that exposing connections isn't necessarily a proof of something (something you apparently agree on).
I never even said that it is not worth the effort or anything of the sort.

All I wanted to say was that because names and connections alone don't tell the whole story, we are forced to complete the picture by observing the world around us and use our imagination... which in my case led me to believe more to the "zionist" story (to simplify) than the "british" story (to simplify). I also said this could be easily due to my ignorance or the rush to balance others' sureness.

As to "prove my case" or shut up. You yourself said it is obvious we don't prove things on that level, but yes you're right, it should be done, I suppose I didn't feel able to produce a long post about the zionist connections with corporations like MITRE, or the U.S. government or the U.S. military or the City of London or the CIA, not because there is no material but for the opposite reason: these things are discussed a lot out there on the internets, and I don't think I could make it very original -- original enough for this forum -- but, also, maybe what stopped me was the feeling that even going "deeper" one would still get the "you are one step away from being an anti-semite" treatment, and maybe even more so. Stupid reasons, I guess.

Anyway. This is a "Israel" thread and I am discussing Israel. I didn't think I was being out of place with this. It is not like I am yelling "Israel did it!" every which way and out of context. What about the "anglo-american" theorists on a Israel topic then?
Lastly, for the umpteenth time, I never involved the jewish people as a whole, and I made you notice so a number of times. That argument is getting real old.

p.s. using the word "maroon" is better than using the word "moron"? I am genuinely asking.

[Dcopymope]

The problem with "naming names" is that this too can give a false sense of achievement and security.

Of course it can. Has anyone here ever said "We did it! We've won! David Ray Griffin is exposed! We can all hang up our hats now. Bye."

No. Nobody has.

You just keep taking it personally that nobody is buying your problem with Zionist Jews and thinking they are mainly responsible above others.

You may as well "warn" us against doing any further research. Gosh, the problem with uncovering TV fakery is that it gives us a false sense of achievement about uncovering TV fakery!

No sh#t Sherlock.

Are you being a maroon on purpose?

Why can't you just accept that insisting "Israel did it!" is stupider than naming actual names of people who perpetrated the propaganda crimes. What is your hang up? You can't stand being called out about the uselessness of blaming a swath of population?

Sheesh. Just accept that we don't know who did it, and that the investigation goes at the pace it goes. We are slow. We are volunteers. There is no money coming in to pay us to do this research and there are no whistleblowers who care about us little guys so either do some research and prove your case or you just look like someone obsessed with blaming something or someone before it is documented.

Prove your case and stop complaining that people don't "get" it.

Whoa, I don't think I was taking anything personally.

I don't understand why you suggest that I devalue the research on media fakery merely because I underlined that exposing connections isn't necessarily a proof of something (something you apparently agree on).
I never even said that it is not worth the effort or anything of the sort.

All I wanted to say was that because names and connections alone don't tell the whole story, we are forced to complete the picture by observing the world around us and use our imagination... which in my case led me to believe more to the "zionist" story (to simplify) than the "british" story (to simplify). I also said this could be easily due to my ignorance or the rush to balance others' sureness.

As to "prove my case" or shut up. You yourself said it is obvious we don't prove things on that level, but yes you're right, it should be done, I suppose I didn't feel able to produce a long post about the zionist connections with corporations like MITRE, or the U.S. government or the U.S. military or the City of London or the CIA, not because there is no material but for the opposite reason: these things are discussed a lot out there on the internets, and I don't think I could make it very original -- original enough for this forum -- but, also, maybe what stopped me was the feeling that even going "deeper" one would still get the "you are one step away from being an anti-semite" treatment, and maybe even more so. Stupid reasons, I guess.

Anyway. This is a "Israel" thread and I am discussing Israel. I didn't think I was being out of place with this. It is not like I am yelling "Israel did it!" every which way and out of context. What about the "anglo-american" theorists on a Israel topic then?
Lastly, for the umpteenth time, I never involved the jewish people as a whole, and I made you notice so a number of times. That argument is getting real old.

p.s. using the word "maroon" is better than using the word "moron"? I am genuinely asking.

If “The Anglo-American Establishment" or "International Anglophile-Network" was behind Israel's founding, as they clearly were, then it’s not out of context. Israel was obviously founded to be the controller of the Middle East, and America is only the attack dog to take over the last few countries in the way of Israeli dominance of that whole region, its apart of the PNAC plan, although that part of the plan wasn't mentioned, and I will believe this is so until anyone can come up with a better reason than mine as to why Israel was founded in the first place, minus all the religious bull sh#t. All those holier than now Jews in Israel that believe they are superior to all and believe that land their standing on was pre-ordained ages ago by this mystical figure generally called 'God' for them to takeover are slated for extinction like the rest of us once their job for the ruling establishment is over, they don’t like keeping pets around, or "useless eaters". Every single detail of their agenda doesn't have to be written in stone for it to become absolute fact, if you use your own discernment and reasoning capabilities you will often come to the right conclusions.

[nonhocapito]

If “The Anglo-American Establishment" or "International Anglophile-Network" was behind Israel's founding, as they clearly were, then it’s not out of context. Israel was obviously founded to be the controller of the Middle East, and America is only the attack dog to take over the last few countries in the way of Israeli dominance of that whole region, its apart of the PNAC plan, although that part of the plan wasn't mentioned, and I will believe this is so until anyone can come up with a better reason than mine as to why Israel was founded in the first place, minus all the religious bull sh#t. All those holier than now Jews in Israel that believe they are superior to all and believe that land their standing on was pre-ordained ages ago by this mystical figure generally called 'God' for them to takeover are slated for extinction like the rest of us once their job for the ruling establishment is over, they don’t like keeping pets around, or "useless eaters". Every single detail of their agenda doesn't have to be written in stone for it to become absolute fact, if you use your own discernment and reasoning capabilities you will often come to the right conclusions.

I certainly wasn't saying your post didn't belong here, I was just provoking Hoi since he apparently found mine out of line but not others that -totally in their rights- moved the thread towards different takes.

Anyway, I follow what you say, but I think I touched how Israel in my opinion got to influence such a large part of anglo-american interests more than the other way around.

It was not for religious reasons, clearly. It happened because of who controls money (when nations went to banker to finance wars or revolutions, banker could say: "what about palestine?"), and because of lobbying. More importantly it happened because the goal of Israel is and has been the only long-term --across decades-- goal amid a bunch of smaller goals based, as said on this thread, on plain greed for individual power and money.

That's in my opinion what made the zionists who worked for a Jewish nation stronger over time and capable to win the corruptible elites of the west to this. Eventually, after the Holocaust, it was impossible to resist to the request.

Think about it, Yalta could have created a new nation over there on the model of Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Kenya, using local respected (and corruptible) elites --what could be the harm? Why the hassle of an occupation, of apartheid, of an endless source of problems?
No six days war, no constant pressure to solve crisis, no constant requests for support and all the rest. Who could have wanted the headache if not the zionists themselves?

My take is that the anglo-americans and the west continuously lend their military strategic force to make Israel stronger, in exchange for good opportunities to make a lot of money or further personal careers. Since they cannot, despite the PNAC papers, see any substantial long-term goal to worry themselves with, except, maybe, "continue with the status-quo, but gain more power", eventually they see no harm in calling themselves, they who wouldn't set foot in Israel, like one Biden, "zionists".

[MartinL]

GREAT! let us agree on "Anglo-American establishment"

Well I for once will certainly not agree on that.

What the military-industrial complex needs when it is about to wage a new useless war?
It needs money. It will not use its own stashed cash, so it needs to drive nations into debt to afford for big, scenic, profitable wars.

Now, where the money come from? The money come from banks.
Banks decide whether they want to loan money for wars or not (the money do not come "from China", because China would never loan money for wars. China comes in the picture later, when all the money is spent and the U.S. are broke. China also complained about the U.S. "spending too much". What do you think they were referring to?).

Now, WHO control the banks? NOBODY REALLY KNOWS. But I think it was established as a fact a long time ago that whoever controls the banks, basically has everything else under control. Imagine the banker as the guy who owns the lot our caravan, our circus, and our graveyard sit on.

Last time I checked, there were pretty good hints that the great banks and the central banks were owned by jewish-zionist families and groups. In the past these banks loaned money to Napoleon, the British crown, the American revolution, the Italian Risorgimento, you name it. The same banks financed WWI, WWII and even the Russian revolution. So many of these things (WWII especially) eventually concurred to the foundation of the nation of Israel.

USA 1913:

The private Federal Reserve central bank,

The IRS (In 1913 IRS responsibilities increased with the introduction of the federal income tax system) and

The Anti-Defamation League is established.

1914:

World War 1 begins...