Influences of Israel and Zionism

[hoi.polloi]

"Maroon" to me means someone deliberately putting on a show as opposed to "Moron" which would be someone stupid. I don't think you are stupid but it seemed to me at the time that you sometimes - maybe - play stupid.

"you are one step away from being an anti-semite"

Personally, I don't mind being called an anti-semite if I can prove that Jews are evil. HECK would that make things easier. It was greedy Zionist Bankers. Everyone hates them already, so what a great solution. Unfortunately, I can't prove that they are the most to blame (though I'll continue to emphasize personal responsibility. Nobody should get off with the whole Nazi thing of "I was just following orders" bullshit.)

Now, I wish I could prove someone was evil in all this 9/11 business but to me I just see jerks being jerks - fucking over each other at every given opportunity because it's not just profitable - it's fun and hilarious to laugh and profit at other peoples' expense. At least, so I'm told. So they make it seem. (I personally try to avoid being such a jerk every waking moment but it doesn't help if I say that about myself, does it? Nobody believes me that I'm a nice guy when I'm posting such vitriol on message boards like this. Maybe I'm not nice when I'm more "anonymous" ... hm, need to work on that ... )

I am not singling you out - I took offense to your language because I am a hot head when I hear people say things like it's dangerous to investigate details instead of generalities. Maybe that's not what you were trying to say but that's what I heard you say.

As for Israel being a culprit, you seem to have intelligent things to say about the matter. I wouldn't discredit your opinions before you get them out. I just want to caution people against posting Coffinman's "Missing Links" and saying they "solved 9/11" with the "Zionist Question" ... or something similar. You are obviously not doing that, and I respect that you are trying to have an intelligent discussion; I apologize if I am getting in the way of that - I honestly should just shut up myself because I haven't added much to say about Israel and this is the Israel thread.

It was not for religious reasons, clearly. It happened because of who controls money (when nations went to banker to finance wars or revolutions, banker could say: "what about palestine?"), and because of lobbying. More importantly it happened because the goal of Israel is and has been the only long-term --across decades-- goal amid a bunch of smaller goals based, as said on this thread, on plain greed for individual power and money.

That's in my opinion what made the zionists who worked for a Jewish nation stronger over time and capable to win the corruptible elites of the west to this. Eventually, after the Holocaust, it was impossible to resist to the request.

Think about it, Yalta could have created a new nation over there on the model of Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Kenya, using local respected (and corruptible) elites --what could be the harm? Why the hassle of an occupation, of apartheid, of an endless source of problems?
No six days war, no constant pressure to solve crisis, no constant requests for support and all the rest. Who could have wanted the headache if not the zionists themselves?

I liked hearing this, not that it matters what I think. But at least it shows you are telling an interesting story about the matter. I also agree with Martin's research on the ADL.

[fbenario]

I apologize if I am getting in the way of that - I honestly should just shut up myself because I haven't added much to say about Israel and this is the Israel thread.

Awesome - the first really funny comment on this thread!

What's my take on the top of the perp pyramid? (Paraphrasing Hoi, I'm very well aware no one cares about my thoughts on Israel.)

I like the concept of 15 or so families at the very top of the perp pyramid - Rothschild, Bush, Astor, Rockefeller, whatever. I see this as more equivalent to the Anglo-American, rather than the Zionist, control theory, spreading their tentacles over all institutions, trying to extract as much money as possible..

Speaking of tentacles, and money, I can't resist posting this:

[MartinL]

Nobody should get off with the whole Nazi thing of "I was just following orders" bullshit.

May I suggest that we try to steer away from stereotypical labels and "collective historical understandings" before we have investigated (in this forum) the events they are based on?

PS. what "Nazi thing" are we referring to here?


Germany Must Perish!
by Theodore N. Kaufman
Newark, N.J., Argyle press
Copyright 1941
Library of Congress Call No.: DD222.K3

Kaufman's fervent proposal for the systematic sterilization of the entire German population was given respectful attention in the American press, including reviews in a number of newspapers. A review in the weekly Time magazine, March 24, 1941, called Kaufman's plan a "sensational idea." - Mark Weber.

Excerpt....

Today's war is not a war against Adolf Hitler.

Nor is it a war against the Nazis.

It is a war of peoples against peoples; of civilized peoples envisioning Light, against uncivilized barbarians who cherish Darkness.

Of the peoples of those nations who would surge forward hopefully into a new and better phase of life, pitted against the peoples of a nation who would travel backward enthusiastically into the dark ages. It is a struggle between the German nation and humanity.

Hitler is no more to be blamed for this German war than was the Kaiser for the last one. Nor Bismarck before the Kaiser. These men did not originate or wage Germany's wars against the world. They were merely the mirrors reflecting centuries-old inbred lust of the German nation for conquest and mass murder.

This war is being waged by the German People. It is they who are responsible. It is they who must be made to pay for the war. otherwise, there will always be a German war against the world. And with such a sword forever hanging overhead the civilized nations of the world, no matter how great their hopes, how strenuous their efforts, will never succeed in creating that firm and solid foun- dation of permanent peace which they must first establish if ever they intend to start the building of a better world.

For not only must their be no more German wars in fact; there must not even remain the slightest possibility of one ever again occurring. A final halt to German aggression, not a temporary cessation, must be the goal of the present struggle.

This does not mean an armed mastery over Germany, or a peace with political or territorial adjustments, or a hope based on a defeated and repentant nation. Such settlements are not sufficiently conclusive guarantees of no more German aggressions.

This time Germany has forced a TOTAL WAR upon the world.

As a result, she must be prepared to pay a TOTAL PENALTY.

And there is one, and only one, such Total Penalty: Germany must perish forever!

In fact -- not in fancy!

Link to book: http://www.ihr.org/books/kaufman/perish.html

[hoi.polloi]

May I suggest that we try to steer away from stereotypical labels and "collective historical understandings" before we have investigated (in this forum) the events they are based on?

Yes, that's fair.

The Nazi quote is attributed most famously to Eichmann, who is quoted as saying, "I never did anything, great or small, without obtaining in advance express instructions from Adolf Hitler or any of my superiors."

Many others have expressed the same or similar sentiments. I am saying the Nazis are specifically different from any other military organization, in which the soldiers use the same excuse for their murderous behavior, because they are widely credited with such quotes whereas our military soldiers are apparently never so humble or smart enough to get quoted as saying such things.

Before you go misinterpreting my language, you must understand I have not judged whether the attributions are a good thing or a bad thing. You decide.

[Dcopymope]

I apologize if I am getting in the way of that - I honestly should just shut up myself because I haven't added much to say about Israel and this is the Israel thread.

Awesome - the first really funny comment on this thread!

What's my take on the top of the perp pyramid? (Paraphrasing Hoi, I'm very well aware no one cares about my thoughts on Israel.)

I like the concept of 15 or so families at the very top of the perp pyramid - Rothschild, Bush, Astor, Rockefeller, whatever. I see this as more equivalent to the Anglo-American, rather than the Zionist, control theory, spreading their tentacles over all institutions, trying to extract as much money as possible..

Speaking of tentacles, and money, I can't resist posting this:

It’s these families among others and their vast influence over all nations through front groups like the CFR and AIPAC as well as their control over the issuance of currency that is the main reason why Carroll Quigley called it "The Anglo-American Establishment". They are the real establishment, not anyone in Israel or anywhere else. Israel, like America gets its marching orders from this "International Anglophile-Network". You can say that they are joined at the hip through this network, but its base of operations is in London.

[MartinL]

I am saying the Nazis are specifically different from any other military organization, in which the soldiers use the same excuse for their murderous behavior

Are we talking about the Holocaust TM, or are we talking about their general "murderous behavior"? I find it a bit too easy to just say "the Nazi's were evil murderers" when that point of view have been pushed on us since birth.

From what I understand the German soldiers behaved much better than their Russian counterpart, and the ruthlessness the Red Army and the threat of them invading ensured that many Norwegians signed up to fight for Germany and Norway against Russia.

From my researches into WW2 it seems like the Germans mostly followed the various conventions (Geneva) and behaved quite well - all things considered - while the Red Army appears to have disregarded international law and conventions on a regular basis.

Examples:

Kathyn massacre (25.000 Polish "intelligensia" murdered by Stalins orders)
Rape of approx. 2 million German women after the Red Army got control over Germany.
Eisenhowers death camps after the war. Estimated death toll up to 1 million.
Gulags and extermination of "intelligensia" in Europe.
Ukrainian Holodomor, 5-10 million intentionally starved to death.

These crimes against humanity were never punished. The people who were behind it still control our part of the world. I wouldn't worry too much about "evil Nazis" today, as they are long gone.
:ph43r:

[hoi.polloi]

What are you talking about? Nazis don't exist? Where do you think they all went when America was buying them up for their technology and brains. Bush is essentially from the same crowd. There are genuinely people who "follow" groups with banners and insignia. Look at the Alex Jones crowd and their dark glasses "inside job" get-ups. Did the leaders of the Nazi movement believe they were Nazis or was that just something the German people chose to endorse? Because a significant population was bullied by their fellow citizens into it.

I don't think the "spiritual Nazi" movement started in Germany that was a perverted idea are as much a threat now, but if you are going to deny that Nazis still exist at all you need to visit Germany and live there for a while. Racism is still prevelant today. I have met them and the self-proclaimed white power groups that want to destroy World Jewery. They live in America too.

Be careful who you defend too easily. There are a lot of groups that would take advantage of September Clues and try to turn it into an army against one or another thing. Don't try that here, Martin.

Pretty much all active armies are composed of violent psychopaths if you ask me. But that's just my opinion. Now you can say Nazis were not as bad as Stalin's horrific group and are probably at best equal to the American military behavior. I might agree. But I would very much worry about Nazi-ism or any "ism" getting too uppity and arming themselves against other people. That's the whole point of this research. There is some group behind many of these.

Now if you want to take away the "evil" behind Nazis that's fine; I don't believe in an objective evil. But you can bet your bottom dollar I would get the fuck out of Germany if I had lived there at the time the Nazi gangs were taking the streets. I will leave America when it gets that bad here too. I am not "into" war.

Of course it's easy to call Nazis brainwashed murderers. Thank god we are still allowed to call some army that because that's what they are. I agree it's more taboo to say the Allies were just as nuts as the Axis but let's call war what it is - insanity.

[MartinL]

Daniel Burrows, Jordan Gollub, Bill White, David Wolfgang Hawke/Andrew Britt Greenbaum,Frank Collin/Francis Joseph Cohen, Adolf Hitler (?).....

Angry white men (alternatively self-hating) alert!

CUI BONO?

At the other side of the table we find Benjamin Freedman, Bobby Fisher, David Cole etc.

I'm just trying to figure this one out Hoi.

[hoi.polloi]

I agree that the entire series of official "Nazi vs. ____blank_____" stories are filled with curiosities and remnants of propaganda. They deserve to be torn apart and analyzed carefully.

There were a lot of movements before the Nazi gangs took over which were genuinely positive movements. For instance, general quests for peaceful spirituality, missions to balance the banking system and wrest it from the hands of the insanely powerful controlling parties.

The zeitgeist was exploited and Nazis were propped up artificially, just as the Alex Jones-George Noory-Ron Paul-Pat Buchanan group has been proffered in the USA recently.

I'm sure all of this is generalities, and if we got into the nitty gritty we could find London and Zionist financiers or something genuinely weird (or weirdly normal!) behind the "Nazi" movement, but that doesn't mean mob mentality shouldn't be kept in check. Some people genuinely become "okay" with racist bigotry (and bigotry of all kinds actually) once given the go-ahead by authority. There were and are still Nazis.

Were the "leaders" themselves actually "Nazi" or did they have more complex affiliations?

My sense is the affiliations of Adolf Hitler, G?nter Goebel, Josef Mengele and others were not the result of employing such simplistic views as their followers did. You are definitely right to point out that 'Nazis' are not something to worry about - that's fine and legitimate. I don't mean to be cranky.

[Veritasirl]

"The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary...THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!"

-- Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Ehrenreich (circa 1954)

[MartinL]

I'm not sure if adopting Holocaust information from a rabbi is the wisest thing to do. Just saying.

Can we stay away from pushing "historical facts" until we have (as intellectually honest researchers on this forum) in fact have established them to be facts?

"Hitler was right about in one thing," Dr. Wise said. "He calls the Jewish people a race, and we are a race." - Rabbi Dr. Stephen Wise. New York Herald Tribune, June 13, 1938, p.12.

The Rabbi was referring to this text from Mein Kampf, where Hitler(?) ironically(?) wrote the same thing as the Rabbi right beneath his famous "Big Lie Technique" quote:

It required the whole bottomless falsehood of the Jews and their Marxist fighting organization to lay the
blame for the collapse on that very man who alone, with superhuman energy and will power, tried to
prevent the catastrophe he foresaw and save the nation from its time of deepest humiliation and disgrace
By branding Ludendorff as guilty for the loss of the World War they took the weapon of moral right from
the one dangerous accuser who could have risen against the traitors to the fatherland. In this they
proceeded on the sound principle that the magnitude of a lie always contains a certain factor of
credibility, since the great masses of the people in the very bottom of their hearts tend to be corrupted
rather than consciously and purposely evil, and that, therefore, in view of the primitive simplicity of their
minds they more easily fall a victim to a big lie than to a little one, since they themselves lie in little things,
but would be ashamed of lies that were too big. Such a falsehood will never enter their heads and they
will not be able to believe in the possibility of such monstrous effrontery and infamous misrepresentation
in others; yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to
accept at least one of these causes as true. Therefore, something of even the most insolent lie will always
remain and stick — a fact which all the great lie-virtuosi and lying-clubs in this world know only too well
and also make the most treacherous use of.

The foremost connoisseurs of this truth regarding the possibilities in the use of falsehood and slander
have always been the Jews; for after all, their whole existence is based on one single great lie, to wit, that
they are a religious community while actually they are a race — and what a race!

- Mein Kampf, page 120

A chromosome called Haplogroup E1b1b1 which showed up in their samples is rare in Western Europe and is most commonly found in the Berbers of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, as well as among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.

"One can from this postulate that Hitler was related to people whom he despised," Mr Mulders wrote in the Belgian magazine, Knack.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... -show.html

I am contending that Jews are NOT a race, and the good Rabbi is mistaken/lying to keep a group mentality going, and, I would love a debate on this subject as well. The opinion that Jews are in fact a race has been voiced by prominent Jewish leaders through the centuries. But just because something is repeated a lot of times, does it have to be true? If this is beyond the scope of the forum, I apologize, but I find no better venue to have a civilized dialogue regarding these very touchy issues.

"Trolls burst when lights are switched on" - Old Norwegian saying. (Free debate and honest inquiry is much better than just not talking about stuff)

[MartinL]

And yes, I am aware of the "genetic research" that has been done mostly in Israel. If Jews were a race, it would not matter, because race is just matter. Matter has no intelligence. My point about race is more related to there being one "jewish" bloodline back to Year Zero and even before that. I see no evidence of the Pharisees and Sadducees of ancient time being related to the Ashkenazim population, which makes up around 90% of world Jewry today. With regards to the Levite's (Jewish high priests, above the Rabbi) it might be different....

The Sadducees (Hebrew: צדוקים‎ Tzedukim) were a group or a sect of Jews opposed to the Pharisees (Hebrew: פרושים‎ — from which today's Rabbinical Jews are descended) that were active in the Land of Israel during the Second Temple period, starting from approximately the second century BCE.

- Wiki

The Sadducees were the hypocrites of the Jewish world, just as the Epicureans were the hypocrites of the Greek world. The rest of the Jews rated the Sadducees as atheists, just as the rest of the Greeks rated the Epicureans as atheists and discerned, as Plutarch said, the sardonic grin behind the mask of their obsequious devotion to the ceremonies at which the force of public opinion compelled their attendance. The Sadducee was a Jew outwardly so long as he so retained place, power and profit. The destruction of Jerusalem, long before it was consummated in A.D. 70, robbed them of the place and nation which alone compensated them for the inconveniences of their nominal allegiance. They knew well enough the power of invincible Rome; and her advance warned them to take themselves and their talents to the market of the wide world, to which in heart and mind they had always belonged.

In contrast with the mutual friendliness and loyalty of the Pharisees, their behaviour towards one another is lacking in courtesy, and when they mix with their fellow-countrymen, they are as offhanded as if their fellows were aliens." Josephus might have added that they were disposed to treat aliens as they should have treated their friends.

The Sadducees were as little loyal to the Judaism of Jerusalem as the Samaritans - and they were less sincere and less interested in religion.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Sadducees

Sounds pretty right on with regards to our situation today don't it? We got a bunch of atheistic, materialistic, evil "Jews" at the top, and their Talmud is the best control mechanism ever devised. I would like to see more people go full circle and denounce the cruelty of the sect that exists within Judaism (see Streicher at Nuremberg) and actually run stuff today....

"Anti-Semitism will be a psychological phenomenon as long as Jews come in contact with non-Jews—what harm can there be in that? Perhaps it is due to anti-Semitism that we survive as a race: at least that is what I believe."

—Albert Einstein, English translation by A. Engel, The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Volume 7, Document 37, Princeton University Press, (2002), p. 159.

"What would you say, for example, if I did not deny there are good aspects of anti-Semitism? I say that anti-Semitism will educate the Jews. In fifty years, if we still have the same social order, it will have brought forth a fine and presentable generation of Jews, endowed with a delicate, extremely sensitive feeling for honor and the like."

—Theodor Herzl, as quoted by Amos Elon, Herzl, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, New York, (1975), pp. 114-115.

[warriorhun]

Dear All,

As Septemberclues is discussing media fakery on 9/11, the most serious evidence I ever encountered regarding the Israeli Mossad involvement is my personal memory of a CNN report about that day.
This CNN report showed palestin people on the Palestinian territories cheering the falling of the WTC towers live.
Of course it needs no debunking: it is already established that, if I remember well, it was admitted after a week by CNN that it was fake.
Still, the impression and implication of that failed part of the whole psyops is enormous. Very strong argument: if that clip was fake news, all could have been (and definitely are). The pro-israeli angle condemns the chosen ones more than Osama.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WptpG_yVUI

[Guerrero]

Dear All,

As Septemberclues is discussing media fakery on 9/11, the most serious evidence I ever encountered regarding the Israeli Mossad involvement is my personal memory of a CNN report about that day.
This CNN report showed palestin people on the Palestinian territories cheering the falling of the WTC towers live.
Of course it needs no debunking: it is already established that, if I remember well, it was admitted after a week by CNN that it was fake.
Still, the impression and implication of that failed part of the whole psyops is enormous. Very strong argument: if that clip was fake news, all could have been (and definitely are). The pro-israeli angle condemns the chosen ones more than Osama.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WptpG_yVUI

YUP. I remember that. But the admission that it was fake was really glossed over/backpage news you might say...I also remember seeing a report on fox news around 2005ish about some supposed iranian boats charging at a US military ship in what they were calling an offensive attack by iran. I remember hearing the recording of the supposed threatening call these (little speed boats) had supposedly made to the US ship and thinking WTF...that accent is like a 12-year old American boy faking an arab accent based on stereotypes he's seen in the movies (yes, it was really that bad) and calling it fake at that time. several days later, backpage news admits, that yes, that whole thing was faked.

[RoyBean]

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