The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

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The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Andrew1484 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:58 am

The Problems With Historical Dating Methods
Moved from: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1424&p=2376161#p2376161
fbenario wrote:Velikovsky's alternate historical timeline is quite possibly the area and intellectual question that most excites me. You posted above at great length on Velikovsky, but you didn't actually comment on that alternate timeline's legitimacy.

1. Since we agree that carbon-14 can't be used as proof of any event or item, what scientific tools do you think can actually be used as dating methods? Do you think dendrochronology is a legitimate dating tool? If not, why? Ice core samples? Can ANY historical dating method be used with authority? If not, does that render all of history invalid?

2. Do you think Velikovsky's alternative historical timeline is legitimate? If you do, which historical eras and events, specifically, do you think might never have occurred at all?

Andrew, since Hoi wants this thread to return to its central theses on the solar system, planets, NASA, and the earth, please quote the entirety of this post of mine as part of your response; then make that forthcoming response of yours on this issue the very first post in a new thread called something like 'The Problems With Historical Dating Methods'.

In advance, thank you so, so much for your time on this question! It means a lot to me - both your time and this question!


1. Yes I think that dendrochronology is probably a reasonably legitimate dating tool. We can empirically observe trees growing and the effect that weather has on the annual growing pattern. Ice core samples are based on a similar idea, but with possibly rather less refinement, where ice core layer samples corroborate tree rings in terms of dating historical “events” --- like cold growing seasons, cold winters and volcanic dust fallout etc. that is quite interesting for me. As long as the investigators presenting this kind of evidence are being honest of course. Rock layers appear to be the least refined of the three ideas but things like magnetic pole reversal information, sea fossils at altitude above sea level, etc., could point to some major catastrophes in the past. Possibly during human history.

I would not be particularly surprised if modern “human history” was longer than say 30,000 years ago, for Cro-Magnon type humanoids (quite possibly interbreeding with and) apparently replacing Neanderthal types in Europe. Any stories handed down by word of mouth (before writing), concerning any catastrophes (serious floods etc.) would rapidly get scrambled and distorted within a few decades or centuries, I would imagine. I have no reason to think that humanoids of say about 12,000 years ago were significantly different from modern humans.

2. I do not pretend to be an expert on Velikovsky but from what I can see about his alleged ideas so far, he looks to me to be a (rather typical) lying, or just plain nuts, Zionist Khazar. The OT bible appears to me to be an apparently plagiarised set of allegories. Not history. I am not in the least bit surprised if archaeology cannot corroborate allegorical stories found in the Old Testament.

I don’t regard more modern allegories like the legends of King Arthur or Robin Hood as history either. I don’t think that there was ever a human being called “Jesus” born to a divinely artificially inseminated “virgin” called “Mary” around 2000 years ago. To talk about the Bible as though it was genuine “history” is, to me, like talking about the 7 “Good Versus Evil” allegorical “Harry Potter” books as though they were history. Allegory is not history.

It is very easy for “history” to be rewritten. We can see that the modern “news reports” are all spin and bullshit. Sadly future so-called “history” books may be written using our current “news reports” as “fact” rather than the total fiction that they are. All very Orwellian and 1984! Do I trust the motives of Zionist Khazars who seek to “rewrite history” like the Zionist Khazar Immanuel Velikovsky appeared to want to do? Not in the slightest!

The “astrological witchcraft” of religious cults like Judaism, Christianity and Islam are very clearly (to me) based on allegory. Jesus the sun god was allegorically crucified on the Crux Constellation (now seen on the Masonic flags of Australia & New Zealand) --- he was never genuinely executed by Romans on a wooden cross. His mother was the divine feminine Goddess of Isis, Mary, Venus-Lucifera, The Queen of Heaven. His father was Jehovah, Baal, Osiris or Allah the Moon God. “His” message of peace and love was interesting. End of story.

"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun." Thomas Paine

I just watched “Snow White and the Huntsman” on DVD and I was highly amused by all of the allegorical astrological witchcraft references, but this legend of Snow White is not real history either, it is just another religious allegory. An amusingly fairly anti-Christian allegory at that, in this particular iteration!

Velikovsky appeared to be saying that the Bible was “genuine history” and that is just plain silly, in my opinion.

Of course it is possible to mind-program many (most?) humans to believe that almost anything is “true” when it is not true. Just look at North Korea and how those poor people are mind-programmed, in their millions, to endure a state of affairs that they really ought not to want to endure. Just look at how most Americans are mind-programmed to believe that the USA is the “Greatest country on Earth” and that Americans actually, genuinely, walked on the Moon in 1969! Bizarre, weird, almost funny, if it was not so tragic!

I am not sure what Velikovsky might be on about if he is bringing in physics and celestial mechanics to his theories concerning history. It might well be that the 7 sky gods of the 7 days of the week (Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus & Saturn) have influenced religious myths, legends and allegories over the last few thousand years, so he has possibly misinterpreted what these ancient astrological witchcraft superstitions were going on about, when he was comparing various religious mythologies to try to construct a new historical timeline, based on myth.

I am not really interested in this guy Velikovsky, but you apparently are. I don’t know what particular aspect of his weird ideas you are most interested in. If you want to ask me a specific question and my opinion about his “revised timeline” with reference to a specific alleged event in history, then please be more specific. Otherwise I will have to generalise. Please remember that I cannot read your mind. I don’t regard the Bible as a “history book” at all. Questions based on the Bible “as history” mean absolutely nothing to me.

Do I think that the Roman Empire peak happened about 2000 years ago? Yes, I think that it probably did. Do I think that several hundred years of Western European history were “invented” and that the Roman Empire peak was thus actually much less 2000 years ago? I doubt it. I suppose that it might have been technically possible to pull off a hoax like that, several hundred years ago, which then got stuck, but I haven’t seen any really compelling evidence for this idea yet. Do you have any compelling evidence for this idea?
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Andrew1484 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:24 am

hoi.polloi wrote:From: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1424&p=2376187#p2376187
That is to say, it may be "their" system but they is us, so maybe it's more like "just another one of our many conflicting, contradictory, intertwined, interconnected sub-systems" of the WTF you refer to.

Kymatica may be relevant?
Esoteric History of Earth
http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/vid ... ntary.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkbvJFEQgJU

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkbvJFEQgJU

fbenario wrote:I'd like to ask you to spend a little bit of time on Velikovsky and tell me what you think about etc., such as the 'never-happened' Dark Ages.


I think that people in the USA may look at “history” rather differently from us Europeans. For example, looking at US history books it seems to me like US history goes back just a few hundred years and then suddenly US “history” hops over the Atlantic Ocean to the UK, to go back further in time. In European history we don’t hop around anywhere of course, our sense of history is more of a seamless timeline, going back further than any US sense of history perhaps.

If we look at these so-called “Dark Ages” (unenlightened ages) as a period of Early Medieval English history, from after Rome withdrew from England until say the Norman invasion of 1066, how plausible is the concept of any missing centuries in English history? Well from a “family tree” point of view many Europeans can go back about 1000 years, for parts of their genealogy, but further back than that records can get hazy. Many houses in England can be traced back in written records to the Doomsday Book of 1086, but again, further back than that the records get hazy. But at least we have written records that the buildings were there at least 1000 years ago.

Dendrochronology can take the “cruck oak beams” of our ancient dwellings further back than 1000 years and of course non-rotting buried wood in peat bogs (causeways and boats) can take us back several thousands of years. Dendrochronology reportedly has a full oak chronology in Ireland, dating back to 4,989BC. I don’t think there is much of a case, when using dendrochronology, to suggest that we can see any real evidence of a “foreshortening of history” during the Early Medieval period for Western Europe, or especially for Britain and Ireland.

In a sense the Dark Ages "never happened" because these ages were not apparently very "dark" and unenlightened. That is not what is meant by this particular theory of course, that some bogus centuries got inserted in there, quite erroneously.

Since the "witches" in charge of the Astrological Witchcraft concept of a "Change of Ages" --- right now from Pisces to the "New Age" of Aquarius --- base their time cycle theories on the way that the precession of the equinoxes "clock" moves with an apparent precise regularity, I suspect that a "time slippage" of several hundred years might be very difficult for them to hide as well. Given the power of modern computers to map this precessional constellation shift over the centuries very easily these days.
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby reichstag fireman on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:09 pm

Andrew1484 wrote:the "witches" in charge of the Astrological Witchcraft concept of a "Change of Ages" --- right now from Pisces to the "New Age" of Aquarius

Hmm! :lol:
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Andrew1484 on Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:15 am

reichstag fireman wrote:
Andrew1484 wrote:the "witches" in charge of the Astrological Witchcraft concept of a "Change of Ages" --- right now from Pisces to the "New Age" of Aquarius

Hmm! :lol:


Yes, it is pretty hilarious calling the the people in charge of Astrological Witchcraft religious cult mind-programming of the 99% common masses “Witches” instead of something else. I have previously toyed with the idea of calling them “Dick Heads” or “Pricks” instead, because many of them appear to love their phallic penis symbols, like Obelisks (O-Baal-isk or the legendary “Shaft,” i.e. Penis, of Baal) way, way too much! Rome, London, Paris, or that really massive 555 foot boner in Washington DC etc.
Image
As Above, So Below!

For those readers who have never really (consciously) heard the famous Astrological Witchcraft story of the legendary “missing penis” of the Moon God (Jehovah, Baal, Osiris or Allah ---- “JahBulOn” in Freemasonic Witchcraft) here it is:
Image
Once upon a time the Great Moon God Osiris had a fight with his brother Set. Set killed his brother Osiris and over 14 nights he gradually cut him up into 14 pieces (the moon wanes over 14 nights).
Image
Horrified by this terrible crime, the distraught sister/wife of Osiris, the beloved Isis (Venus-Lucifera, Mother Mary), reassembled her hubby over the next 14 nights (the moon waxes over 14 nights) ---- but, oh horror of horrors, his penis was missing, because Set had (unhelpfully) thrown it into the River Nile to be eaten by the fish. Which at least made the Nile fertile! 13 Moon Cycles per Solar Year --- 13 X 28 = 364 + 1 = A Year And A day.

Incidentally the River Nile is the mirror or "reflecting pool" of the “Milky Way” galaxy --- As Above So Below --- Milk accidentally squirted from the breast of the goddess Hera whilst nursing Hercules --- she had abruptly ripped the infant from her breast when she had found out who the little half-human bastard was. But that is another story.

So anyway, to cut a long story short, Isis created the Obelisk to replace the missing penis of the Moon God Osiris (Jehovah, Baal, Allah).
Image
Thus it came to pass that Isis had reassembled Osiris' corpse and had embalmed him, as the archetypal mummy. Osiris then reigned over the afterworld as a king among the deserving spirits of the dead.
Image
The son of Osiris called Horus (Jesus, the Sun God) was conceived by the necrophiliac Mother Goddess Isis (Mary, Venus-Lucifera) fucking with Osiris' dead corpse (and his artificially replaced giant dick).
Image
Horus the sun god of the Daytime rather naturally then became the enemy of Set (the dismembering “lunatic” who had attacked his father) and the ancient allegorical myths describe their conflicts.
Image
Some Egyptologists have reconstructed these as Set poking out Horus's left eye, and by Horus retaliating by castrating Set. In the “English” mind-programming language, Horus rises on the Horizon in the morning and of course the Sun Sets in the evening.

In the mythology of Heliopolis, Set was born of the sky goddess Nut and the earth god Geb. Set's twin sister and wife was Nepthys.

Nut and Geb also produced another set of twins who became husband and wife: the divine Osiris and Isis, whose son was Horus.

The historian Plutarch in his treatise on Isis and Osiris, written around the turn of the first century of the “Common Era” (Age of Pisces) says:
"One might conjecture that the Egyptians hold in high honour the most beautiful of the triangles, since they liken the nature of the Universe most closely to it, as Plato in the Republic seems to have made use of it in formulating his figure of marriage. This triangle has its upright of three units, its base of four, and its hypotenuse of five, whose power is equal to that of the other two sides. The upright, therefore, may be likened to the male, the base to the female, and the hypotenuse to the child of both, and so Osiris may be regarded as the origin, Isis as the recipient, and Horus as perfected result. Three is the first perfect odd number: four is a square whose side is the even number two; but five is in some ways like to its father, and in some ways like to its mother, being made up of three and two."

Image
47th Proposition of Euclid or Pythagoras Theorem.

The Monumental Penis in Washington DC = 555 feet tall so X 12 inches = 6660 inches, divisible by 3 to give a “unit” length of 2220 inches. So 6660 inches for Osiris (3), 8880 inches for Isis (4) and for the Sun God Horus 11100 inches (5).

Here Endeth the first lesson.
This is the word of the Lord.
And the suitably mind-controlled 99% zombie common masses reply with a magical incantation of something like:
Thanks be to God,
Amen ---- Amon-Ra!
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby bostonterrierowner on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:42 pm

Nice lecture on esoterecism. Keep them coming :)
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Andrew1484 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:49 am

bostonterrierowner wrote:Nice lecture on esoterecism. Keep them coming :)


Not everybody who has delved into the “esoteric” aspects of “history” would agree that these arcane things should be discussed in front of the profane common masses. "Pas devant les enfants."

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”

It is probably important to try to comprehend the “technically correct meaning” of (jargon) words in “English” like esoteric, profane, arcane, occult, Hermetic (Hermes Trismegistus, Mercury, Thoth, Woden).

As an atheist, a philosopher (Philo-Love of Sophia - Wisdom - Atbash Cipher), a maverick and as an iconoclast I really don’t care though if the profane “Schweinhunde” consistently get the wrong end of the shit stick.
As they do.

I suspect that whatever happens, the human species desperately needs a paradigm shift, as soon as possible, and concealing ANYTHING that we have detected from anybody else right now is liable to delay that much needed paradigm shift.

I am not “honour bound” by any “oath” to keep anything secret, because I have never been “hoodwinked” or "cable towed" and initiated into any occult order of astrological witchcraft.

The occult hermetic orders (with their secrets) may be part of the problem or part of the solution or engaged in a “hidden” global war with a tribe like the Khazars, I don’t really care. Like a festering pus filled wound on the “history of mankind” I just want to slash it all open, to let the secretive pus out and to expose this whole horrible mess to the sterilising light of day.

So anyway what the hell have the Khazars been getting up to during the last 1000 years or so and how have they been messing with our minds, our “English” history and with our money? They are mentioned in the Magna Carta in 1215. They reportedly first really came over to England in the 1066 invasion with “William the Bastard” a Norman Norseman Viking.

Eastern European Khazarian sovereignty in Khazaria had been broken in 965 with the defeat at the fortress of Sarkel and the semi-nomadic Khazarian tribe had then spread westwards throughout Europe, systematically conquering the Western European Regimes through “money” and usury (debt enslavement).

As the Khazar Mayer Amschel Bauer, who founded the Rothschild family reportedly said: "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."

In 1111 (it has been suggested) some 9 French Knights formed the Order of The Knights Templars. This Order became deeply involved in the Cabala (i.e. so called “Jewish Magic”) and in international banking, as banksters. Compound interest on debts (usury) was technically banned for Christians, but it was OK for Khazars as non-Semitic so-called “European Ashkenazi Jews” --- who could be involved in usury.

The KT cult called themselves the “Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon” --- Sol (sun) Amon-Ra --- another mythological person, as is the “Christ” sun-god. And the entire fable of “Hiram Abiff” of course.

“Renting money” at a fixed percentage of the outstanding principle could avoid the “compound interest trap” of Khazarian style usury. As “Bankers” the Knights Templars became deeply entwined with the Freemasons (franc-maçonnerie) of Europe who were tasked with building the massive Gothic Cathedrals of Europe; banking was naturally required to fund these (technically amazing) projects. The Free Mason was not tied to any Liege Lord under feudalism, so he was free to move around Europe. The Free Mason had secret Guild Knowledge about the Golden Ratio (Phi) and about physics, geometry and maths etc. that required protecting as trade secrets, hence all of the oaths and secret handshakes etc.

By 1290 the Khazarian banksters had pushed their luck a bit too far in England, so King Edward 1st issued an edict expelling these debt enslaving Khazarian usurer banksters from England.

By (unlucky for some) Friday 13th October 1307 the French Knights Templars had pushed their luck too far in France as well. Many of them fled just in time, with their accumulated wealth, from the French port of La Rochelle. Arriving in Portugal, Scotland (to fight with Robert the Bruce and to create Rosslyn Chapel) and in Sicily, at least. In Sicily they adopted the Jolly Roger “Skull & Crossbones” flag from the local king, for their piratical naval fight-back against their Christian enemy. They probably also arrived in North America, via the Iceland-Greenland-Arcadia Viking northern route, well before the “Templar Red Cross Columbus dude” opened up the southern route ---- since the northern route had pretty much closed, due to global cooling. The Knights Templar cult also then merged with their secretive friends the Freemasons, to go underground.

Sir Francis Bacon (1561 to 1626, possibly a secret child of Elizabeth 1st) is credited with being the real “Shakespeare” (Shaker of the Spear, so Pallas Athena, Minerva, Venus-Vespera, Goddess of Wisdom). He quite possibly wrote the interesting tale of the “Merchant of Venice” (Venice, City of Venus-Lucifera, Enlightenment Goddess) about the problems associated with Khazarian banksters. Bacon is credited with encouraging the rise of English Freemasonry and of Rosicrucianism. Also with involvement in the Kings James “English” version of the bible. “Shakespeare” and the Bible helped to create a modern form of an “English” mind-programming language, that could then rival French, which until then had been a more popular European mind-programming language, for the educated. Bacon’s idea of the “New Atlantis” of the USA became a great British Empire project.

The English revolutionary leader Oliver Cromwell rather stupidly invited the Khazars to return to England after the Civil War in 1657, presumably in the hope that these banksters could speed up financial recovery in England. Cromwell was funded by Khazarian banksters from Amsterdam such as Menasseh Ben Israel. The Square Mile Masonic/Zionist City State of London is the financial heart of England. It is also the unregulated heart of things like global gangster capitalism, the fake fiat money invention, fractional reserve banking, derivatives, financial fraud, financial terrorism, re-hypothecation of fraudulent debt and of global usury.

William 1st (the Bastard) had granted the citizens of the City of London a charter and some independence back in 1075. During 1688 William III Orange-Nassau was enthusiastically funded to the sum of two million guilders by Amsterdam based Khazar Francisco Lopes Suasso to invade England and to overthrow the Stuart monarchy in Ireland, England and Scotland. This was followed by “The Bank of England” being formed in 1694 and the financial enslavement of Britain to the banksters and usurers was then complete.

1776 was an interesting year. The Khazar Adam “Spartacus” Weishaupt established the “anti-religious” movement of the Perfectibilists on Walpurgisnacht May 1st (The Bavarian Illuminati). The Masonic American Revolution, against the tyranny of The Bank Of England, also really got started in 1776.

The Masonic City State (10 miles X 10 miles) of Washington DC was placed on “God’s longitude” of 77 degrees West of London, Zero Longitude. The bogus Washington aircraft on 9/11, alleged to have hit the Pentagon (heart of a Venus type pentacle), was called AA77. Incidentally New Delhi in India (The Jewel in the British Imperial Crown) was placed on 77 degrees East of London Zero. See also Thelema A.’.A.’. Liber OZ 77 and OZ = 77 in Gematria (as in the allegorical story partly about money, The Wizard of OZ, by Theosophist Frank Baum).

Any American financial independence from The City of London really ceased with the Federal Reserve scam of 1913 however. Since 1776 it is very clear that most (all?) global wars and revolutions have had Khazarian banksters and Khazarian master-minds behind them. The Masonic American Revolution, The deeply anti-Christian French Revolution, The Atheistic Communist Manifesto, The Year of Revolutions in 1848, The US Civil War 1861, The First World War 1914 (ending 11/11 at 11am), The Atheistic Communist Russian Revolution 1917, The Second World War in 1939 (starting at 11am on 03/09/39), etc.

As the part Khazar Winston Churchill said in 1922 about the Russian Revolution: "From the days of Spartacus Weishaupt [Khazar], Karl Marx [Khazar], Trotsky [Khazar], Bela Kun [Khazar], Rosa Luxemburg [Khazar], and Ema Goldman [Khazar], this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a recognisable role in the tragedy of the French Revolution.  It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century.  And now at last this band of extraordinary personalities [Khazars] from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.” [The USSR]

As the part Khazar Winston Churchill said in reference to WW2. "You must understand that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism, but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest." [Jesuit Priest = The Khazar Adam "Spartacus" Weishaupt.]

Regarding the historical event of 9/11 --- this was evidently a number coded event (numerology or number magick). IXXI. The Cabala and “Mega Ritual” ceremonial magick was involved. The numbers 11, 77, 175 and 93 all additionally have a deeper meaning. A = 1, G = 7, K = 11.

A study of Thelema might help here. As a primer “Frater Antilio” mentions the significance of 93/93 but I think he missed that 175 = The Number of the Magic Square of Venus-Lucifera, the Goddess of Enlightenment.
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... 30&start=0

Zionist Khazars from Israel were also reported to have been caught “dancing for joy” in New York during the 9/11 Mega Ritual event. Were these Khazars REALLY being that stupid, or is this “news” report completely bogus? Perhaps, in this case, we should consider that it does not matter so much that we are being lied to (all the time), the more important issue is why are they lying? What do “they” hope to achieve by such reports, true or false? How should we react to their provocations, if we should react at all?

The False Flag Mega Ritual event of 9/11 has caused (provoked as a reaction), perhaps, millions of innocent deaths and maimings and refugees since 9/11. We are (each of us) all partly responsible for these very unfortunate reactive results.

Do we not all collaborate with these evil Masonic and Zionist Khazar Occupied Regimes (in Europe, the USA and Israel) by not passively resisting their each and every move? These illegal wars of aggression and mass murder would stop right away if nobody bothered to turn up to fight them. We must also stop being enslaved by their fake fiat money as debt. We desperately need a paradigm shift!

Rather like Plato and his cave allegory, Gurdjieff claimed that most people do not really perceive reality, as they are not conscious of themselves, but they live in a state of hypnotic "waking sleep." "Man lives his life in sleep, and in sleep he dies." Gurdjieff taught that each person perceived things from a completely subjective perspective. Gurdjieff stated that maleficent events such as illegal wars of aggression and so on could not possibly take place if people were more awake. He asserted that people in their typical state were unconscious automatons, but that it still was possible for a man to wake up to some extent and to experience life more fully. We must all try harder to wake up, before it is too late.

Nonsense, Fairytales, Propaganda Crap‬
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPqN7bbxaA

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPqN7bbxaA
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby bostonterrierowner on Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:48 pm

@Andrew

11.11.1918 is a date when Poland regained her independence after 123 years of non-existence . It is of course directly associated with WWI's end . Marshall Piłsudski , our first "naczelnik" of the state was a Free Mason . Word "naczelnik" can be translated to German as "fuhrer" . Poland was used to strenghten Bolsheviks and later to provoke WW2 . During Polish-Bolshevik war in 1920-21 Piłsudski had the reds surrounded and ready to annihilate but suddenly let them regroup and attack the Whites . The official fairy tale is that Pilsudski knew that Western powers would have supported white Russians at Poland's expense after a Russian civil war was ended . He chose the lesser evil supposedly but I am sure he was given orders from his Lodge :)

I want to attract your attention to Jewish messianic movements and especially Sabatai Zwi and later Jakub Frank . Frank's supporters converted en masse in 18th century Poland and their descendants are on top positions till this day . He was a contemporary of Bauer/Rotschild who even financed Jakub Frank during his presence in Offenbach a suburb of Frankfurt am Mein .

In Poland-Lithuania , Jews who converted could easily gain nobility. Actually in Lithuanian part of the political union
a Jewish convert was automatically given a noble status . In Poland he had to apply . The number of Polish citizens with Jewish/Khazar origin is just impossible to assess it most probably goes into hundreds of thousands and maybe millions . The official 20 thousand number is a joke :)
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby reichstag fireman on Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:39 pm

Andrew1484 wrote:Not everybody who has delved into the “esoteric” aspects of “history” would agree that these arcane things should be discussed in front of the profane common masses. "Pas devant les enfants." "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”

Profound arrogance.

It is probably important to try to comprehend the “technically correct meaning” of (jargon) words in “English” like esoteric, profane, arcane, occult, Hermetic (Hermes Trismegistus, Mercury, Thoth, Woden).

Nope, a modern dictionary will do us fine.

[snipped.. boring garbage]

I am not “honour bound” by any “oath” to keep anything secret, because I have never been “hoodwinked” or "cable towed" and initiated into any occult order of astrological witchcraft.

Really. :rolleyes:

[snipped.. boring garbage]

The occult hermetic orders (with their secrets) may be part of the problem or part of the solution or engaged in a “hidden” global war with a tribe like the Khazars, I don’t really care.


Will you just call them The Jooz, then we'll all see where you're coming from.

Like a festering pus filled wound on the “history of mankind” I just want to slash it all open,


That's jolly kind of you, doctor.

Eastern European Khazarian sovereignty in Khazaria had been broken in 965 with the defeat at the fortress of Sarkel and the semi-nomadic Khazarian tribe had then spread westwards throughout Europe, systematically conquering the Western European Regimes through “money” and usury (debt enslavement).

At this point it's worth mentioning that the Khazars were converts to Judaism.. so (obviously) like the Black Jews of Ethiopia, the Khazars are not true descendants of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Never mind, eh, but don't let that stop your Hate Fest!

As the Khazar Mayer Amschel Bauer, who founded the Rothschild family reportedly said: "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."


Khazar? Jew? Rothschild? Never!

[snipped.. boring garbage]

In 1111 (it has been suggested)


Who made the "suggestion"? You?!

Compound interest on debts (usury) was technically banned for Christians, but it was OK for Khazars as non-Semitic so-called “European Ashkenazi Jews” --- who could be involved in usury.


It's the other way around. Traditionally, the Talmud forbids the imposition of usurious debts on fellow Jews. Though fair prey for debt-slavery are the goyim - the disparaging Jewish word for Christians and Muslims (according to jew haters the word goyim means filthy beasts) Incidentally, usury simply describes an exorbitant rate of interest, not the nature of its compounding.

[snipped.. boring garbage]

The KT cult called themselves the “Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon” --- Sol (sun) Amon-Ra --- another mythological person, as is the “Christ” sun-god. And the entire fable of “Hiram Abiff” of course.


That's fascinating no doubt. But what about Exposing Media Fakery? What happened to that goal, Andrew?

By 1290 the Khazarian banksters had pushed their luck a bit too far in England, so King Edward 1st issued an edict expelling these debt enslaving Khazarian usurer banksters from England.


You've airbrushed a vast part to the historic story - some 500 years has vanished! The emigration of the financial powerbase (which you ignorantly identify as The Khazars, your clumsy means to evading censure for spewing hate-filled anti-semitism), the movement of the landed aristocracy from Venice and Florence into the Northern European cities.

By (unlucky for some) Friday 13th October 1307 the French Knights Templars had pushed their luck too far in France as well. Many of them fled just in time, with their accumulated wealth, from the French port of La Rochelle. Arriving in Portugal, Scotland (to fight with Robert the Bruce and to create Rosslyn Chapel)


The Rosslyn Chapel was founded in the mid 15th century. So your history is skewy by at least 150 years at this point, but never mind.. carry on..

In Sicily they adopted the Jolly Roger “Skull & Crossbones” flag from the local king, for their piratical naval fight-back against their Christian enemy.


Who's they? Do we still have The Jooz in our crosshairs?

They probably also arrived in North America,..before Columbus...


Yes, and they (The Jooz) also invented the television nearly 600 years before Logie Baird who basically plagiarised the idea, based on a design painted on the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel by a Khazar ancestor of Mother Theresa, the secret founder of the Khazarian mind control cult called Opus Dei. I'm getting the hang of this shit!

Sir Francis Bacon (1561 to 1626, possibly a secret child of Elizabeth 1st)


possibly? or possibly not? Who told you De Troof? David Icke? :blink:

credited with being the real “Shakespeare”..He quite possibly wrote the interesting tale of the “Merchant of Venice” (Venice, City of Venus-Lucifera, Enlightenment Goddess) about the problems associated with Khazarian banksters.


Really. So Bacon was the REAL Shakespeare, not the Earl of Oxford as many serious scholars suppose. Any evidence for your theorifications? Thought not! Fancy that! :rolleyes:

The English revolutionary leader Oliver Cromwell rather stupidly invited the Khazars to return to England after the Civil War in 1657, presumably in the hope that these banksters could speed up financial recovery in England.


Why was it stoopid? Surely a shrewd move.. if money is needed for war, where else to find it but the bankers? Plus ca change? Although in reality, the bankers decide when the wars start and end, according to a complex economic algorithmic formulaic equation, called "Gouging the Last Drop of Blood From Us"

..The Square Mile Masonic/Zionist City State of London is the financial heart of England. It is also the unregulated heart of things like global gangster capitalism, the fake fiat money invention, fractional reserve banking, derivatives, financial fraud, financial terrorism, re-hypothecation of fraudulent debt and of global usury.

Nudging a bit closer to calling the filthy sods The Jooz, aren't you?!


As the part Khazar Winston Churchill said in 1922 about the Russian Revolution: "From the days of Spartacus Weishaupt [Khazar], Karl Marx [Khazar], Trotsky [Khazar], Bela Kun [Khazar], Rosa Luxemburg [Khazar], and Ema Goldman [Khazar], this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a recognisable role in the tragedy of the French Revolution. 


Puhleeze! The Jacobin Reign of Terror was run by The Jooz?! Who'd have thunk it! And there was me thinking it was the British Crown!

As the part Khazar Winston Churchill said in reference to WW2. "You must understand that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism, but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest." [Jesuit Priest = The Khazar Adam "Spartacus" Weishaupt.]


So Sir Winston was a Joo too?! Amazing! So that means the whole House of Marlborough must be Joo! And not least the Spencer side of Britain's "most noble family of commoners".. All Jews! Going full circle here, the Windsor young blood has to be Joozy too (via the late Lady Di).. It's Official! Buckingham Palace is squatted by Jews!

Regarding the historical event of 9/11 --- this was evidently a number coded event (numerology or number magick). IXXI. The Cabala and “Mega Ritual” ceremonial magick was involved. The numbers 11, 77, 175 and 93 all additionally have a deeper meaning. A = 1, G = 7, K = 11.


Incredible.. A good dose of Numerology to really clear out the bowels! How's about "911" was chosen because it happens to be the North American telephone number for the emergency services?? So the date for the "911" PSYOP was chosen for, erm, maximum psychological effect. The number has nothing to do with numerology, astrology or witchcraft. :rolleyes:

A study of Thelema might help here. As a primer “Frater Antilio” mentions the significance of 93/93 but I think he missed that 175 = The Number of the Magic Square of Venus-Lucifera, the Goddess of Enlightenment. See: rigorousintuition.ca..


Ahh, rigorousintuition - that shower of idiots... who did much to push the spooky-spooky narrative of "chemical weapons expert doctor david kelly" and his "presumed suicide" - cue perhaps the longest and definitely the most boring PSYOP involving a single vicsim!!

Zionist Khazars from Israel were also reported to have been caught “dancing for joy” in New York during the 9/11 Mega Ritual event. Were these Khazars REALLY being that stupid, or is this “news” report completely bogus?


So The Jooz did 911, but actually they didn't since there was no 911. But the Jooz as owners of the mass media, shrewdly implicated themselves in a crime that never happened! Clever Trevors!

I'm tired of you, Andrew. You're a fake - a fraud - a phony. Your M.O. is so well worn it's transparent.
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby hoi.polloi on Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:29 am

Wait, though, I don't think Andrew is a phony, necessarily. I see his speeches as an indication that he is annoyed with being fooled.

Both of you here:

Regarding the historical event of 9/11 --- this was evidently a number coded event (numerology or number magick). IXXI. The Cabala and “Mega Ritual” ceremonial magick was involved. The numbers 11, 77, 175 and 93 all additionally have a deeper meaning. A = 1, G = 7, K = 11.


Incredible.. A good dose of Numerology to really clear out the bowels! How's about "911" was chosen because it happens to be the North American telephone number for the emergency services?? So the date for the "911" PSYOP was chosen for, erm, maximum psychological effect. The number has nothing to do with numerology, astrology or witchcraft.


... are touching on things that have been looked at before. I personally think the ceremonial magic stuff is backwards thinking from the plot. e.g.; they choose 9-1-1 as the emergency telephone number because it has a ritual significance with some Sheriff somewhere who happens to be a mason, or AT&T, which was always a spooky CIA-riddled company. Then, when the date 9/11 is chosen for the same reason, they can argue retroactive "plotting" or something. Makes them feel powerful.

Just think about how people work. The arrogance of the average person is that they lie to themselves and say, "I already knew that!" when in fact, they didn't. Or they did not on a very conscious level. I do that to myself sometimes. We all do it a little bit, but rationalism has helped us suppress those times when we think we know something we don't. That's what our forum is all about - doing a major "knowledge check" on people. We don't actually know a lot.

So it is probably with these people doing the big puppet show. They like to say it's all mysticism and divine glory, but it's just futzing with numbers: a little before the fact, and a little after the fact. To create the illusion of power.

I don't think Andrew is full of shit, he is trying to purge all this stuff he has heard rumored elsewhere. He is careful to put things in quotes where he is passing along a story. I don't believe in the mega-ritual theory so much as I think the ongoing hoaxes are a combination of rich people being bored and having their occult "religion" thing to play with, as well as the practical interests of the rich: keeping fresh wars going, keeping people panicked, confused, in the dark, and making themselves feel less scared and less unimportant by vampiring off others' lack of knowing. You can feel "more in the know" when you're sucking pina colladas all day while you've somehow convinced a thousand people to do your work for you, and those people seem hungrier and skinnier than you. If they also worship a floating space station in the sky that you control the fate of, because the space station is mostly a fiction on paper, all the more reason to feel the power of knowledge. It's not really more than anyone else knows, but it's a "secure" feeling.
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby fbenario on Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:06 am

Andrew1484 wrote:The Problems With Historical Dating Methods
Moved from: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1424&p=2376161#p2376161
fbenario wrote:Velikovsky's alternate historical timeline is quite possibly the area and intellectual question that most excites me. You posted above at great length on Velikovsky, but you didn't actually comment on that alternate timeline's legitimacy.

1. Since we agree that carbon-14 can't be used as proof of any event or item, what scientific tools do you think can actually be used as dating methods? Do you think dendrochronology is a legitimate dating tool? If not, why? Ice core samples? Can ANY historical dating method be used with authority? If not, does that render all of history invalid?

2. Do you think Velikovsky's alternative historical timeline is legitimate? If you do, which historical eras and events, specifically, do you think might never have occurred at all?
...
In advance, thank you so, so much for your time on this question! It means a lot to me - both your time and this question!

I am not really interested in this guy Velikovsky, but you apparently are. I don’t know what particular aspect of his weird ideas you are most interested in. If you want to ask me a specific question and my opinion about his “revised timeline” with reference to a specific alleged event in history, then please be more specific. Otherwise I will have to generalise. Please remember that I cannot read your mind. I don’t regard the Bible as a “history book” at all. Questions based on the Bible “as history” mean absolutely nothing to me.

Do I think that the Roman Empire peak happened about 2000 years ago? Yes, I think that it probably did. Do I think that several hundred years of Western European history were “invented” and that the Roman Empire peak was thus actually much less 2000 years ago? I doubt it. I suppose that it might have been technically possible to pull off a hoax like that, several hundred years ago, which then got stuck, but I haven’t seen any really compelling evidence for this idea yet. Do you have any compelling evidence for this idea?

1. Yes!!!!! Right at the end you got to the question I most want to figure out. Sorry for not being more specific before, but I'm a lawyer, and I was quite intentionally not trying to guide your thoughts on Velikovsky. I sincerely wanted you to apply your own brain to his theories with no guidance or prejudgment.

2. I apologize for not responding to your great, and very thoughtful, post for 5 days; I was simply waiting until I had the time to respond properly to you. First, I want to thank you for the time you took, and the mental effort you applied, simply because I asked you to look into this for me, and told you it was important to me. Your efforts on my behalf, and your good-faith response to my request, show above all else you have a good heart to others and the world - and possibly also to me! You're awesome.

3. One more question I would like you to look at, if I may be so bold as to ask for more of your time. If in fact Velikovsky is right, and the Missing Dark Ages comprise events that somehow got compressed into what we define as 1000 - 1500 A.D., how do we research this, using I suppose primarily just our own brains and logic? What major historical events from 'way back' might never have happened?

Or are these questions just too far-fetched and silly for you to deal with meaningfully any further?

4. I trust you'll let me say that I think Jesus' crucifixion is a matter of historical record, and that The Cross/Resurrection is the single most important event in human history (no matter how long man stays around), without losing respect for me as a human being - or seeing me as a moron, bad actor/shill, actor in bad faith on a forum that depends on objective research material for credibility. If you do, please remember you've also got 1,700 of my posts to consider before reaching such a negative conclusion. Thank you.
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Dcopymope on Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:58 am

fbenario wrote:
Andrew1484 wrote:The Problems With Historical Dating Methods
Moved from: http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2376161
fbenario wrote:Velikovsky's alternate historical timeline is quite possibly the area and intellectual question that most excites me. You posted above at great length on Velikovsky, but you didn't actually comment on that alternate timeline's legitimacy.

1. Since we agree that carbon-14 can't be used as proof of any event or item, what scientific tools do you think can actually be used as dating methods? Do you think dendrochronology is a legitimate dating tool? If not, why? Ice core samples? Can ANY historical dating method be used with authority? If not, does that render all of history invalid?

2. Do you think Velikovsky's alternative historical timeline is legitimate? If you do, which historical eras and events, specifically, do you think might never have occurred at all?
...
In advance, thank you so, so much for your time on this question! It means a lot to me - both your time and this question!

I am not really interested in this guy Velikovsky, but you apparently are. I don’t know what particular aspect of his weird ideas you are most interested in. If you want to ask me a specific question and my opinion about his “revised timeline” with reference to a specific alleged event in history, then please be more specific. Otherwise I will have to generalise. Please remember that I cannot read your mind. I don’t regard the Bible as a “history book” at all. Questions based on the Bible “as history” mean absolutely nothing to me.

Do I think that the Roman Empire peak happened about 2000 years ago? Yes, I think that it probably did. Do I think that several hundred years of Western European history were “invented” and that the Roman Empire peak was thus actually much less 2000 years ago? I doubt it. I suppose that it might have been technically possible to pull off a hoax like that, several hundred years ago, which then got stuck, but I haven’t seen any really compelling evidence for this idea yet. Do you have any compelling evidence for this idea?

1. Yes!!!!! Right at the end you got to the question I most want to figure out. Sorry for not being more specific before, but I'm a lawyer, and I was quite intentionally not trying to guide your thoughts on Velikovsky. I sincerely wanted you to apply your own brain to his theories with no guidance or prejudgment.

2. I apologize for not responding to your great, and very thoughtful, post for 5 days; I was simply waiting until I had the time to respond properly to you. First, I want to thank you for the time you took, and the mental effort you applied, simply because I asked you to look into this for me, and told you it was important to me. Your efforts on my behalf, and your good-faith response to my request, show above all else you have a good heart to others and the world - and possibly also to me! You're awesome.

3. One more question I would like you to look at, if I may be so bold as to ask for more of your time. If in fact Velikovsky is right, and the Missing Dark Ages comprise events that somehow got compressed into what we define as 1000 - 1500 A.D., how do we research this, using I suppose primarily just our own brains and logic? What major historical events from 'way back' might never have happened?

Or are these questions just too far-fetched and silly for you to deal with meaningfully any further?

4. I trust you'll let me say that I think Jesus' crucifixion is a matter of historical record, and that The Cross/Resurrection is the single most important event in human history (no matter how long man stays around), without losing respect for me as a human being - or seeing me as a moron, bad actor/shill, actor in bad faith on a forum that depends on objective research material for credibility. If you do, please remember you've also got 1,700 of my posts to consider before reaching such a negative conclusion. Thank you.


The historicity of Jesus is not in question in academia and never was, it was and still is his divinity that is in question. Basically, anything beyond his existence is a matter of faith.
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Andrew1484 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:08 am

reichstag fireman wrote:Will you just call them The Jooz, then we'll all see where you're coming from.


The term "Jew" ("Jooz") suggests to me a Semitic "Hebrew" person from Judea who believes in Moon god Judaism, the religion of "Abraham" of the Age of Aries. A Khazar is a non-Semitic European person from Khazaria, who might be an atheist, Satanist, Christian, Muslim, a believer in Judaism or a believer in something else. They are a semi-nomadic inbred tribe that historically has not tended to assimilate very well with the local population (and thus lose their Khazarian identity when they move) and so religion, if any, is not really an issue with the Khazar from my point of view.

reichstag fireman wrote:At this point it's worth mentioning that the Khazars were converts to Judaism.. so (obviously) like the Black Jews of Ethiopia, the Khazars are not true descendants of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Never mind, eh, but don't let that stop your Hate Fest!


The Khazars were allegedly converts to Moon god Judaism, but their Star of Saturn/Satan is not a Sigil for the Moon god. You are correct that these European Khazars are not descendants of the Semitic "Twelve Tribes of Israel" --- which is another very good reason not to call them "Jews" or "Jooz" ---- or to think that they have any "historical" right whatsoever to invade Semitic Palestine and to conduct a policy of ethnic cleansing against the Semitic descendants of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Where exactly is this alleged "Hate Fest" going on?

I can feel a lot of hate coming from you towards me, but I do not hate the descendants of the Semitic "Twelve Tribes of Israel" ---- I sympathise with them for being exterminated. I do not even hate the Zionist Khazars for doing the exterminating. I pity them for being so evil.

As the part Khazar Winston Churchill said in reference to WW2.


reichstag fireman wrote:So Sir Winston was a Joo too?! Amazing! So that means the whole House of Marlborough must be Joo! And not least the Spencer side of Britain's "most noble family of commoners".. All Jews! Going full circle here, the Windsor young blood has to be Joozy too (via the late Lady Di).. It's Official! Buckingham Palace is squatted by Jews!


Khazars --- not by "Jews" --- and Churchill was partly a Khazar through his mother, not his father. Diana may have been a Khazar through her mother and her father, if her real (genetic) father was Jimmy Goldsmith.

Zionist Khazars from Israel were also reported to have been caught “dancing for joy” in New York during the 9/11 Mega Ritual event. Were these Khazars REALLY being that stupid, or is this “news” report completely bogus?


reichstag fireman wrote: So The Jooz did 911, but actually they didn't since there was no 911. But the Jooz as owners of the mass media, shrewdly implicated themselves in a crime that never happened! Clever Trevors!


I did not say that the Khazars did 9/11, I said that some people evidently want us to think that the Khazars did 9/11. A false flag terrorist attack like 9/11, that is then used as a bogus pretext for a series of illegal wars of aggression, for mayhem and for mass murder, is very certainly a crime that did happen. It does not matter if there were no deaths on 9/11 or not. Death certainly followed 9/11, as was intended by the 9/11 terrorists. Khazars may be implicated in 9/11 but it is not really plausible, I think, that they could have pulled it all off without a lot of help from rogue "Americans" who are not Khazars.

reichstag fireman wrote: You're a fake - a fraud - a phony. Your M.O. is so well worn it's transparent.


Are you a Khazar? You sound like one to me --- “which you ignorantly identify as The Khazars, your clumsy means to evading censure for spewing hate-filled anti-semitism” --- You trot out the same old irritating Khazarian allegation of "hate filled anti-Semitism" (when Khazars are very obviously not Semites) and of me hating the "Jooz" when I really don't hate anybody.

I very certainly don't hate the Semitic Palestinians, natives of the Middle East, descendants of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who may be believers in Moon God Judaism, or Semitic Christian converts or Semitic Muslim converts or believers in something else, like Satanism. As an atheist I am simply not emotionally involved or engaged in any religious sectarian hatred. As a human being I am not a "racist" either, there is just one human race.

I may be a little horrified by the psychopathic behaviour of the non-Semitic Khazarian illegal invaders of Palestine. I am very sad that the Zionist Khazar invaders irradiated the Semitic Sephardic "Jewish" Ringworm Children. But I don't hate anybody. I don't hate you, even though you appear to hate me. I love humanity. Hate will get us nowhere. I support all of these so-called "Jews" (Semites or non-Semites) who know that Zionism is a big problem.

The Ringworm Children
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 760405404#

The Brutal Zionist Role in the Holocaust
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antis ... /index.cfm

Jewish Rabbi: Zionists are Godless Criminal Thugs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c0_1FL_KRg

The Zionist War on Nazi Germany - March 1933
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/jewishwar.cfm

Benjamin Freedman Speech -
Ex-Zionist speaks out against Zionism.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 207532170#

Traditional Jews Are Not Zionists
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Orthodox Jews Against Zionism
http://www.nkusa.org/

Jews Not Zionists
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth
http://www.mujca.com/

The Khazarian Conspiracy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Haj-CJOERTs
Last edited by Andrew1484 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Andrew1484 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:11 am

bostonterrierowner wrote:@Andrew

11.11.1918 is a date when Poland regained her independence after 123 years of non-existence . It is of course directly associated with WWI's end . Marshall Piłsudski , our first "naczelnik" of the state was a Free Mason . Word "naczelnik" can be translated to German as "fuhrer" . Poland was used to strenghten Bolsheviks and later to provoke WW2 . During Polish-Bolshevik war in 1920-21 Piłsudski had the reds surrounded and ready to annihilate but suddenly let them regroup and attack the Whites . The official fairy tale is that Pilsudski knew that Western powers would have supported white Russians at Poland's expense after a Russian civil war was ended . He chose the lesser evil supposedly but I am sure he was given orders from his Lodge :)

I want to attract your attention to Jewish messianic movements and especially Sabatai Zwi and later Jakub Frank . Frank's supporters converted en masse in 18th century Poland and their descendants are on top positions till this day . He was a contemporary of Bauer/Rotschild who even financed Jakub Frank during his presence in Offenbach a suburb of Frankfurt am Mein .

In Poland-Lithuania , Jews who converted could easily gain nobility. Actually in Lithuanian part of the political union
a Jewish convert was automatically given a noble status . In Poland he had to apply . The number of Polish citizens with Jewish/Khazar origin is just impossible to assess it most probably goes into hundreds of thousands and maybe millions . The official 20 thousand number is a joke :)


Thanks. Interesting stuff. The whole Poland thing is so tragic.
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Andrew1484 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:34 am

Dcopymope wrote:The historicity of Jesus is not in question in academia and never was, it was and still is his divinity that is in question. Basically, anything beyond his existence is a matter of faith.


I am really not sure that we have a lot of historical evidence for a man called Jesus at all, outside of the bible. The proposition that "Academia" has never questioned stuff like this might be a little too strong as well I think. I just don't know how we could ever even start to prove that a man called Jesus ever existed that long ago. 2000 years ago --- or less than 2000 years ago according to Velikovsky. If Velikovsky is correct that a massive historical fraud has been foisted on us, and several hundred years of history are bogus, that sounds to me like another good reason to doubt all of our history, as all of it being potentially bogus, including people like this alleged Jesus person --- leaving aside any "divine" (Harry Potter type) magical powers that he is alleged to have had in the Gospel (God's-Spell) stories about him.
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Re: The Problems With Historical Dating Methods

Unread postby Andrew1484 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:00 am

fbenario wrote:1. Yes!!!!! Right at the end you got to the question I most want to figure out. Sorry for not being more specific before, but I'm a lawyer, and I was quite intentionally not trying to guide your thoughts on Velikovsky. I sincerely wanted you to apply your own brain to his theories with no guidance or prejudgment.


Great I am glad I sort of hit on what you were getting at then.

fbenario wrote:2. I apologize for not responding to your great, and very thoughtful, post for 5 days; I was simply waiting until I had the time to respond properly to you. First, I want to thank you for the time you took, and the mental effort you applied, simply because I asked you to look into this for me, and told you it was important to me. Your efforts on my behalf, and your good-faith response to my request, show above all else you have a good heart to others and the world - and possibly also to me! You're awesome.


Thank you very much. I think that we all may have bits of a "jigsaw puzzle" that we need to try to share with each other.

fbenario wrote:3. One more question I would like you to look at, if I may be so bold as to ask for more of your time. If in fact Velikovsky is right, and the Missing Dark Ages comprise events that somehow got compressed into what we define as 1000 - 1500 A.D., how do we research this, using I suppose primarily just our own brains and logic? What major historical events from 'way back' might never have happened?

Or are these questions just too far-fetched and silly for you to deal with meaningfully any further?


A lot of events in "history" are likely to be bogus. Propaganda, spin, distortion and myth assumed to be real.

I don't think that an "added time theory" is likely to be correct. Not just for reasons like tree ring dating and the precession of the equinox clock system. If history had been that radically and locally distorted in Western Europe, I think that we would see a kind of "ripple effect" with historical timeline mismatches in Eastern Europe, the world of Islam, the ancient East to West contacts with India and China as well. I just don't see it. I really cannot see much of a motive for attempting such a fraud either.

fbenario wrote:4. I trust you'll let me say that I think Jesus' crucifixion is a matter of historical record, and that The Cross/Resurrection is the single most important event in human history (no matter how long man stays around), without losing respect for me as a human being - or seeing me as a moron, bad actor/shill, actor in bad faith on a forum that depends on objective research material for credibility. If you do, please remember you've also got 1,700 of my posts to consider before reaching such a negative conclusion. Thank you.


No, no of course you can express a personal belief that the Bible is a history book. It just never really struck me personally as being a history book. I am not sure why, but at some point my mind simply rejected the possibility that it could be genuine history. It was like a switch being flipped in my mind. Hard to explain, but everything in the Bible suddenly made much more sense to me, as allegorical stories, after that switch flipped.
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In Europe it appears that the "Beaker People" (2800 to 1800 Before Common Era Age of Pisces, so the Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries) in Spain had "sighting stones" set up to view the Crux Constellation to the south. This was (according to conventional history) thousands of years ago when the Crux (of the matter) was visible to Europeans in the Northern Hemisphere. Crux dipped below the Horizon for the Northern Hemisphere less than 2000 years ago and Crux is now called the "Southern" Cross. Significantly and symbolically you can now see the Crux constellation displayed on the flags of Australia & New Zealand.
Image
Back then, thousands of years ago, at the winter equinox in the European Northern hemisphere (December 21st to 24th) the sun would have "died" (stopped moving lower on the horizon) hung around on the Crux for 3 days, before being reborn again for the new year on December 25th. Slowly rising higher on the horizon, bringing more light and the warmth of spring. On the third day our Lord arose again from the dead. It seems that the winter equinox this year is also going to be especially important. They do keep going on about December 21st 2012! I think that this date may be very important for the New Age of Aquarius and any new religion that is going to be created for this New Age.
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