THE DERAILING ROOM

A place to relax and socialize - to muse, think aloud and suggest
john gault
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Re: The 'cold' of space and our Universe that isn't

Unread post by john gault »

.
A break? A rest? Sitting still? Like the resting sun?

(this posted dedicated to Rusty and hard-working sockpuppets everywhere)

THE SOLSTICE


Begins 11:59AM on June 20

Image

Ends –9:50 AM on June 21

Image

21 hours and 51 minutes with ZERO variation in solar declination


Confirm it for yourself - NOAA Solar calculator http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/

Completely impossible in the heliocentric model of the universe.

-JG

(edit: to add link)
HonestlyNow
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Re: The 'cold' of space and our Universe that isn't

Unread post by HonestlyNow »

Completely impossible in the heliocentric model of the universe.

-JG
I'm not at this point wanting to learn the mathematics of it all.

But simply by imagining a circle around the earth that represents the sun's yearly latitudinal travels, I can see that 9/10 of one degree of a circle (21:51 hours) appears flat (not moving north-south) at the solstice points.

How does this contradict the heliocentric model?
john gault
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Re: The 'cold' of space and our Universe that isn't

Unread post by john gault »

HonestlyNow wrote: I'm not at this point wanting to learn the mathematics of it all.
That quote would make a great t-shirt.
HonestlyNow wrote:
How does this contradict the heliocentric model?

The only math required is zero = 0

All changes in solar declination are the result of a corresponding orbital motion.

All changes in orbital motion result in a corresponding change in the solar declination.

Therefore…

No variation in solar declination EQUALS no orbital motion.


Hey, that was easy!

-JG
HonestlyNow
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Re: The 'cold' of space and our Universe that isn't

Unread post by HonestlyNow »

JG-
Disclaimer right on the link you provided:
This solar calculator is provided for research and entertainment purposes only. Due to variable atmospheric conditions and uncertainty inherent in the algorithms used, the actual observed values of sunrise, sunset and solar position may differ from the results presented here.
rusty
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Re: The 'cold' of space and our Universe that isn't

Unread post by rusty »

john gault wrote: No variation in solar declination EQUALS no orbital motion.
Hey, that was easy!
No, that wasn't easy, that was wrong. Just plain wrong. Neither do you understand solar declination nor the sine-like alteration of it during the year due to the (assumed) circular earth orbit around the sun.

I can't tell for sure if the site you mention indicates the maximum, minimum or average declination, but in either case it's easily possible that during the two days closest to the summer solstice the declination remains totally unaltered for up to two decimal digits.

It's just like throwing a ball up in the air. At its highest point the movement almost stops, and shortly before and shortly after the highest point is reached the altitude is the same.

Neither do you seem to understand that the site calculates its values just by using the maths behind the heliocentric model rather than real-word measurements. Thus it can NEVER be used to construct a proof against heliocentrism on its own. A real case against heliocentrism could be made if you could show that the predicted values do not match the observations in the real world.

I'm all for questioning the heliocentric model and looking for alternatives. But if I read arguments like yours I have to assume that your only mission is to purposefully discredit all the critics of heliocentrism by making them look like total nutcases.
john gault
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Re: The 'cold' of space and our Universe that isn't

Unread post by john gault »

.

Image
john gault
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Re: The 'cold' of space and our Universe that isn't

Unread post by john gault »

HonestlyNow wrote:JG-
Disclaimer right on the link you provided:
This solar calculator is provided for research and entertainment purposes only. Due to variable atmospheric conditions and uncertainty inherent in the algorithms used, the actual observed values of sunrise, sunset and solar position may differ from the results presented here.
And?

The value we are concerned with (the relevant value) is ... SOLAR DECLINATION (not sunrise, sunset or solar position).

A given solar declination = given location in orbit = a period of daylight/length of day = a given day on the calendar

These are just four different "units of measurement":

1)degrees of declination
2)degrees on a circle (or 94:91 ellipse)
3)hours of daylight
3)calendar days

Change one you change all four.


Give me one, I'll give you the other three.

Abracadabra!

-JG
hoi.polloi
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

john gault, what you are saying sounds really strange so far. Please help me understand your argument so I can pull it out of the derailing room.
john gault wrote:.
The heliocentric model, at 0.257° per day (46.88 degrees in 182.5 days) requires over 1.02° of change in solar declination in a 96 hour period, yet the data indicates the actual variation is only 0.04°.
You're saying that every single day the heliocentric model "requires" a declination of .257° per day, but that's clearly not true since some days the declination is much larger and some days it's much shorter. The days of more declination make up for the days of less to complete the Sun's motion in Heliocentric theory and Geocentric theory. So you are ignoring your own measurements. It's baffling and I can't help but agree you are here to sound like a mad man.

Your argument sounds like nonsense and doesn't hold up any theory: not Geocentrism or Heliocentrism, which mostly have interchangeable maths.

What 'light' are you attempting to shine exactly?
john gault
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by john gault »

Hoi,

Let us not talk falsely now...

What part do you not understand?

You have sat by while I contend with flying monkeys and the sockpuppet Rusty with nary a peep.

Now you want to try the "feigned ignorance/ sudden retardation" act?

Not even a "thanks" for the help in resolving several issues that, according to your postings, you have been trying to sort out?

Is this facebook or a forum for rational discourse?

Your a smart man. It may not be easy, but is rather simple.

Solstice, orbit, motion, solar declination. Do the math.

It's true-- you do "get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right." (Grateful Dead)

The key part is "if you look at it right".

Reason is the enemy of error.

Reasonable, thoughtful, relevant question are welcomed.

The truth isn't going to change-- I am just a messenger.

-JG
john gault
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by john gault »

hoi.polloi wrote:john gault, what you are saying sounds really strange so far. Please help me understand your argument so I can pull it out of the derailing room.
john gault wrote:.
The heliocentric model, at 0.257° per day (46.88 degrees in 182.5 days) requires over 1.02° of change in solar declination in a 96 hour period, yet the data indicates the actual variation is only 0.04°.
You're saying that every single day the heliocentric model "requires" a declination of .257° per day, but that's clearly not true since some days the declination is much larger and some days it's much shorter. The days of more declination make up for the days of less to complete the Sun's motion in Heliocentric theory and Geocentric theory. So you are ignoring your own measurements. It's baffling and I can't help but agree you are here to sound like a mad man.

Your argument sounds like nonsense and doesn't hold up any theory: not Geocentrism or Heliocentrism, which mostly have interchangeable maths.

What 'light' are you attempting to shine exactly?
Solar Declination is UNIQUE IN TIME. For any given solar declination, there is a corresponding moment in time.

I realize you did not expect to see 400 years of science debunked so easily but... A is A.

This is the Achille's heel.

Forget about me-- look at the evidence, consider the claims, reach a conclusion.

I am confident you can connect the dots (lots of them).

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Thanks.

-JG
hoi.polloi
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

Your hyperbole is really not helping. You just wasted 43 lines of our forum to say:
Solar Declination is UNIQUE IN TIME. For any given solar declination, there is a corresponding moment in time.
... which explains absolutely nothing about what you think you've discovered. Using a solar positioning calculator is a debunking of squat.

Explain anything. Just one thing you actually discovered yourself. Without pictures. Without hyperbole. Using logic. Or you will be banned.
john gault
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by john gault »

Hoi,

You have my email.

Out of respect for you and your efforts, I will be glad explain it to you in much more detail.

As a rule, I keep try to keep my post as simple as possible (to avoid 'brain overload') and may have miscalculated the level of misunderstanding surrounding this issue.

You know my record (sparse but spotless). Quality not quantity.

I believe this forum can be even better (and it is already way ahead of the pack).

Strive for perfection, settle for excellence.

Let me know.

Thanks.

-JG
hoi.polloi
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

Go ahead and do it right here. For everyone to see.
john gault
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by john gault »

I have. The problem is one of comprehension, not presentation.

In the spirit of the 4th, here are more details and a recap of others. (and please reread my earlier post as needed)

Modern Science tells us that between the solstices the earth completes 180° (of the 360) of its just slightly elliptical “orbit” (ratio 94:91). As it orbits, the sun traces a ‘solar noon line’ on the earth. The time at which that line crosses the local line of longitude is called solar noon for that location.

The latitude at which the sun is exactly 90° (unique in time) overhead at solar noon is called the solar declination. It is the number of degrees above (summer) or below (winter) the equator where the sun is directly overhead (azimuth 90°) at any moment in time

As the change in solar declination is linear with time, it is ‘unique in time’—that is, for any given moment in time there is a unique solar declination. Degrees above the equator are denoted with a + and those below the equator with a -, at equinox, the solar declination is 0°. While each numerical declination will occur twice each year, they will be unique as one is ‘rising’ and one is ‘falling’.

The change in solar declination SHOULD move like the hand of a watch – smoothly and continuously IF the heliocentric model were correct. It is not. The evidence provided is probative and the additional supporting evidence is easily available by making us of the (linked) solar calculator.

All changes in solar declination are the result of a corresponding orbital motion.


All changes in orbital motion result in a corresponding change in the solar declination.

A given solar declination = given location in orbit = a period of daylight/length of day = a given day on the calendar

These are just four different "units of measurement":

1)degrees of declination
2)degrees on a circle (or 94:91 ellipse)
3)hours of daylight
3)calendar days

Change one you change all four.

Give me one, I'll give you the other three.

All data available from NOAA Solar Calculator http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/

The deception is hiding in plain sight.

Have a look.

-JG

(understand that all of the terminology and 'explanations' offered by 'science' are intended to confuse, not clarify-- I am attempting clarify the very muddy waters)
hoi.polloi
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

All changes in solar declination are the result of a corresponding orbital motion.
No, this is NA$A's claim.

All changes in orbital motion result in a corresponding change in the solar declination.
Again, this is NA$A's claim.


What you obviously are trying to say is that the decimal places missing from the calculator do not show you the fraction of a degree difference there is in the formula. They round off the number to the nearest hundredth of a degree, which is your only basis for claiming the degree doesn't change, you blowhard, playing-dumb, fake moron.

The change in solar declination SHOULD move like the hand of a watch – smoothly and continuously IF the heliocentric model were correct. It is not.
You're setting up a bogus condition (A): the Sun should behave like a watch. (No, it should behave like the Sun.)
And then setting up a bogus definition of that condition (B): a watch moves smoothly. (No, watches have jerky, halty motions.)
Then you claim the heliocentric model is true only under the condition that the bogus condition A and definition B are indeed bogus.

Which means you are actually claiming that heliocentricity is correct. Because your false statements are false.
Then you are claiming, independently of both of your conditions, that the heliocentric model is false.

Essentially, you have just declared that heliocentricity is correct and the proof that it's false ... is that it's false.

And you have done so very poorly.

So there is indeed an enormous problem with both your presentation and your logic.

---

Instead of pointing out the numerous problems with a spinning Earth model, you use circular logic to make anyone questioning the spinning Earth model sound like a nutcase. You make twisted Lewis Caroll-ish logic statements backhandedly supporting NA$A (they are wrong, unless false things are false) and construct damnations upon your house of cards.

But you haven't actually disproven the math of the solar declination, nor questioned any of NA$A's claims. You have merely hoped to catch us peering into your lack of comprehension, snagging us on some idiotic thing you hoped we would imagine because of your ass-lickingly pompous speech, and then have your NA$A pals play 'gotcha' on the idiocy you set up as useless bait.

The only thing you have proven useful for on this forum is showing everyone just how far NA$A is willing to go to pay shills for keyboard mashing attempts to derail serious investigation into their fraud. Good bye. Good riddance.
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