THE DERAILING ROOM

A place to relax and socialize - to muse, think aloud and suggest
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lux
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by lux » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:54 pm

^ Oops! I see definite traces of yourself in your posts above! Better delete them quick! :P

[additional smilies from this post omitted so as not to offend anti-smilie or smilie-phobic forum members -- not that there's anything wrong with that]

antipodean
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by antipodean » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:07 am

lux wrote:
jaytotale wrote:Yes and every reply must be accompanied by a pointless video to take away the emphasis of the post if the person replying has absolutely fuck all to say!
I thought the above quote was very funny. Maybe the smileys can be used as a unit of measure 1 smiley = it made me chuckle, 5 smileys = I fell off my computer chair laughing.

I would like to award the above quote a well deserved. :D :D :D :D

Heiwa
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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:21 pm

simonshack wrote:
Why, for instance, can we see them all lined up on this oblique path - as shown on this screenshot (depicting the positions of these celestial bodies on August 12, 2013) that I took of the lovely NEAVE INTERACTIVE PLANETARIUM ?
The planets evidently orbit the Sun and the Moon orbits the Earth more or less in the same plane! Venus and Mercury are seen behind the Sun and the Moon is seen hovering over planet Earth all lit up by the Sun (just as predicted by Copernicus).

simonshack
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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:36 pm

Heiwa wrote: The planets evidently orbit the Sun and the Moon orbits the Earth more or less in the same plane! Venus and Mercury are seen behind the Sun and the Moon is seen hovering over planet Earth all lit up by the Sun (just as predicted by Copernicus).
Thanks Heiwa for another illuminating :rolleyes: post (posted a few minutes after my last Declination-post above). Have you even tried to process my contentions - in such a short time? Perhaps you're just playing stupid? Or should I suspect that your superfast replies to my posts are part of some sinister agenda of yours? Hey, have you finally submitted to your friend Christopher Bollyn the questions I had for him - many months ago? If not, why?

You may respond to these questions here - but please stop commenting on this thread as I kindly asked you the other day. It appears that you really have absolutely nothing but silly quips to offer on this subject.

Heiwa
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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:26 am

simonshack wrote:
Heiwa wrote: The planets evidently orbit the Sun and the Moon orbits the Earth more or less in the same plane! Venus and Mercury are seen behind the Sun and the Moon is seen hovering over planet Earth all lit up by the Sun (just as predicted by Copernicus).
Thanks Heiwa for another illuminating :rolleyes: post (posted a few minutes after my last Declination-post above). Have you even tried to process my contentions - in such a short time? Perhaps you're just playing stupid? Or should I suspect that your superfast replies to my posts are part of some sinister agenda of yours? Hey, have you finally submitted to your friend Christopher Bollyn the questions I had for him - many months ago? If not, why?

You may respond to these questions here - but please stop commenting on this thread as I kindly asked you the other day. It appears that you really have absolutely nothing but silly quips to offer on this subject.
Do not get upset Simon! You suggest in this thread that the Sun orbits Earth and I think little planet Earth orbits the very much bigger, heavier Sun (the center of our Solar system moving in the Milky way galaxy) and we have a friendly discussion about it with your illustrations as base.
Re Bollyn I have asked him and ... no replies. His blog is working but that's it. I actually called him on the phone, somebody (the son?) picked it up ... and hanged up.
Re Costa Concordia an attempt to upright the wreck on the seafloor will take place 4-9 September 2013 at Isola del Giglio, where we met January 2012 and had a good lunch. The uprighting attempt will fail as explained at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/news811.htm . I look forward to it. I may be wrong of course. We will see.

hoi.polloi
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Re: THE DERAILING ROOM

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:38 pm

Sorry, Simon, I know you said Heiwa could respond to off-topic things in the SSSS thread, but I have just moved your micro-discussion to the Derailing Room for now since it seemed to be a distraction from the much more important elements of that thread.

agraposo
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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by agraposo » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:46 pm

simonshack wrote:However, we have to ask ourselves why Mercury's (and Venus's) orbit seems to be 'locked' with the Sun's orbit- as if it were one of its satellites - whereas Earth appears to roll away on its own, separate plane - as if unconnected to its surrounding celestial bodies.
That's an interesting idea, and is related with my argument as explained here: http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2386838

I will try to explain myself in a different way. (Note to Hoi: please, don't think I'm trying to suggest man can travel to Mars or any other planet :) )

Imagine, just imagine, that there is a hot debate in Mars whether Mars is at the center of the Universe, or the Sun is at the center of the Universe. For centuries, martian astronomers collected the position of the Sun and the planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Jupiter and Saturn), until Martian-Ptolemy proposed his famous Mars-centric model, where the Sun and the planets were orbiting the motionless Mars. This model explained the observed data, but it was somehow complicated. Many years later, another astronomer, Martian-Copernicus, made a simpler model, putting the Sun at the center with all the planets orbiting it. But this implied that Mars was moving, and nobody noticed that movement, so they didn't believed the theory of Martian-Copernicus. To complicate things even more, a high skilled astronomer, Mars-Tycho, proposed a mixed model, consisting of Mercury, Venus, Earth, Jupiter and Saturn orbiting around the Sun, and the Sun orbiting around Mars. This way, the model was simpler, and Mars didn't move, everybody agreed with that and were happy.

In summary, for the martians there are three main world systems:
- Mars-centric model: all the planets and the Sun orbit Mars
- heliocentric model: all the planets orbit the Sun
- mixed Martian-Tychonian model: Sun orbits Mars, and Mercury, Venus, Earth, Jupiter and Saturn orbit the Sun.

This little story can be made for 'people' living in Jupiter or Saturn.

But we live in the Earth. For us, there are three main world systems:
- Earth-centric model: all the planets and the Sun orbit the Earth
- heliocentric model: all the planets orbit the Sun
- mixed Tychonian model: Sun orbits the Earth, and Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn orbit the Sun.

Now, it ocurred that there was a cosmic meeting among all the astronomers of the Solar System. Each one presented her theories about the Solar System. All of them presented the observed data as proof of their claims:
- Mars-centric advocates defended that Mars is at the center of the Universe;
- Earth-centric advocates defended that Earth is at the center of the Universe;
- Jupiter-centric advocates defended that Jupiter is at the center of the Universe;
- Saturn-centric advocates defended that Saturn is at the center of the Universe.

Unfortunately, nobody could present a theory for Mercury and Venus, as 'people' living there would be fried by the Sun proximity.

But hey! an unknown smart astronomer realized that there was a COMMON theory for all the astronomers, it was the heliocentric model! After some discussion, everyone had to admit that solution as the logically correct one, because that theory explained the observed data from ALL the planets (except that nobody felt her planet's movement, and agreed to discuss that issue in the next meeting).

Excuse me if this story sounded too childish, but now I answer your question:
simonshack wrote:However, we have to ask ourselves why Mercury's (and Venus's) orbit seems to be 'locked' with the Sun's orbit- as if it were one of its satellites - whereas Earth appears to roll away on its own, separate plane - as if unconnected to its surrounding celestial bodies.
It appears so because we live on the Earth!

hoi.polloi
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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:05 am

You've already made your point well enough that you imagine a completely speculative universe in which people are inhabiting Mars and therefore we have the right to pretend our measurements from Earth would be replicated there.

Yes, it is childish and completely unscientific based on how much we don't know about physics even here on Earth. You continue to make very old possibly obsolete assumptions because it's convenient to imagine you know more than you do. It's like you are asking for 10 popsicles and when denied, you ask for one, which you describe in a delicious fashion. We simply don't have time to grant your fantastic mind experiment as valid just because your beautiful imagination has been given one bad program about this whole "all scientific measurements on Earth are repeatable elsewhere in the unexplored cosmos" fantasy.

We have no idea, and we will likely never know. You are talking purely imaginative fantasy. Like Bugs Bunny floating home from space using an umbrella. Let's stick to Earth measurements, from Earth, because those are the things we can do. Moved to Derailing Room.
Imagine, just imagine ...
PS: You are a good story-teller, though. Perhaps you could capitalize on that in a different venue? ^_^

agraposo
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Re: Tycho-SSSSs v3.0

Unread post by agraposo » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:47 pm

simonshack wrote: But that modern, Wikipedia version is not really from Astronomia Nova, is it? It is dated 2003 - 2018.
Yes, it is:
http://www.rarebookroom.org/Control/kep ... ml?page=27

simonshack
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Re: Tycho-SSSSs v3.0

Unread post by simonshack » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:27 pm

agraposo wrote:
simonshack wrote: But that modern, Wikipedia version is not really from Astronomia Nova, is it? It is dated 2003 - 2018.
Yes, it is:
http://www.rarebookroom.org/Control/kep ... ml?page=27
Uh, I meant this one :

Image
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... 3-2018.png

Heiwa
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Re: Why Rocketry Doesn't Work in the Vacuum

Unread post by Heiwa » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:09 pm

brianv wrote:Hypothetical question!

Consider a handgun that is somehow floating in mid-air. Now imagine that same gun can be fired by remote control. The gun isn't being held, the trigger is not pulled, the ignition happens electronically. The gun has been cocked before being set adrift then fired remotely. Will the gun reload? Remember nobody is holding it!

Challenge:

If one of the vacuum rocket guys can build a working model of the rocket that pushes against itself

I will build one of the other type that uses propellant and gases that pushes against the earth and atmosphere
If the handgun floating in space has mass 1 kg and the bullet has mass 0.01 kg and the explosion of the gun powder (mass 0 kg to keep it simple) displaces the bullet at 1 000 m/s velocity in one direction (the acceleration from 0 to 1 000 m/s speed takes little time), I assume the handgun will displace in the other direction at 10 m/s speed.
But I may be wrong? :rolleyes:

brianv
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Re: Why Rocketry Doesn't Work in the Vacuum

Unread post by brianv » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:14 pm

Heiwa wrote:
brianv wrote:Hypothetical question!

Consider a handgun that is somehow floating in mid-air. Now imagine that same gun can be fired by remote control. The gun isn't being held, the trigger is not pulled, the ignition happens electronically. The gun has been cocked before being set adrift then fired remotely. Will the gun reload? Remember nobody is holding it!

Challenge:

If one of the vacuum rocket guys can build a working model of the rocket that pushes against itself

I will build one of the other type that uses propellant and gases that pushes against the earth and atmosphere
If the handgun floating in space has mass 1 kg and the bullet has mass 0.01 kg and the explosion of the gun powder (mass 0 kg to keep it simple) displaces the bullet at 1 000 m/s velocity in one direction (the acceleration from 0 to 1 000 m/s speed takes little time), I assume the handgun will displace in the other direction at 10 m/s speed.
But I may be wrong?
I take it your posting in this thread is just meant as a distraction for visitors.

Two weeks to come up with that answer not bad!

There is NO DIRECTION in space, it is boundless! The gun would spin, if not being held, and therefore would not reload!

I take it your Space Rockets are being gripped by a giant space-hand every time the engine fires!

Heiwa
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Re: Why Rocketry Doesn't Work in the Vacuum

Unread post by Heiwa » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:24 pm

brianv wrote:
Heiwa wrote:
brianv wrote:Hypothetical question!

Consider a handgun that is somehow floating in mid-air. Now imagine that same gun can be fired by remote control. The gun isn't being held, the trigger is not pulled, the ignition happens electronically. The gun has been cocked before being set adrift then fired remotely. Will the gun reload? Remember nobody is holding it!

Challenge:

If one of the vacuum rocket guys can build a working model of the rocket that pushes against itself

I will build one of the other type that uses propellant and gases that pushes against the earth and atmosphere
If the handgun floating in space has mass 1 kg and the bullet has mass 0.01 kg and the explosion of the gun powder (mass 0 kg to keep it simple) displaces the bullet at 1 000 m/s velocity in one direction (the acceleration from 0 to 1 000 m/s speed takes little time), I assume the handgun will displace in the other direction at 10 m/s speed.
But I may be wrong?
There is NO DIRECTION in space, it is boundless! The gun would spin, if not being held, and therefore would not reload!
In 3D space anywhere there are three DIRECTIONS or courses taken by any moving thing after being disturbed - right/left, up/down, in/out (or fwd/aft, up/down, starboard/port on a ship). Spin is also possible in three ways.
I agree though that our UNIVERSE space is boundless ... and thus has always existed and will always exist. And brianv - even you are there for the moment :P

brianv
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Re: Why Rocketry Doesn't Work in the Vacuum

Unread post by brianv » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:31 pm

I edited before you posted. Don't use my board-name in bold in your post you annoying asswipe! Which is your function here, paid for I presume.

And once again you are talking bollox!

Heiwa
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Re: Why Rocketry Doesn't Work in the Vacuum

Unread post by Heiwa » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:41 am

brianv wrote:I edited before you posted. Don't use my board-name in bold in your post you annoying asswipe! Which is your function here, paid for I presume.

And once again you are talking bollox!
If there are no directions in space, how do you know what is up/right or away? Have you got a driving license? How do you get arround? OK, your language indicate you are in the shit and piss age 2-3 so you are excused.

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