The MOON HOAX

[Jazza]

Both together.

[WHTT]

Greetings Simon and all,

Nothing impressive about my credentials, I assure you. I would think any of us would be able to perform the calculations, but it would be a monumental task. I can't see why it's necessary (What question is it supposed to answer, and where would one find the bills of materials to build all the components of that sucker?)

If the answers to the questions we are presently discussing are not available with some diligent digging on the web, that's suspicious.

Yes, a retired project director/engineer of good heart (and patience with us) would be very welcome about now!

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For what it's worth, I think "30-ton crane" is the rating of what it will lift, rather than gross weight of the thing... truck probably weighs around 80-82% of rating/max lifting capacity.

Quick search of term
Hydraulic Truck Crane "gross weight"
and anyone can fiddle with calculations, if so inclined. [Wise, since my math is not to be trusted]

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LM &CM =33-38 tons or so by my math.

Offhand, Jazza's pic of both modules (and the scale provided by the other pic of command module on display with people standing next to it) it seems plausible to me that the weight of the truck could be scrunched into a roughly equally weight modules package (as opposed to contrasting the big truck with the CM only).

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How was the LUNAR MODULE attached to the COMMAND MODULE ?
How did the astronots transfer from one to the other?

No answer.

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We are, of course setting aside the contemplation of a lot of weird NASA photographs in this present discussion. I ave not forgotten that.

Hoi,

I had no problem with jokes. Basically, I probably chimed in here because I was frustrated no one had done all my research and presented it in a tidy package for me. :)

[hoi.polloi]

For what it's worth, I think "30-ton crane" is the rating of what it will lift, rather than gross weight of the thing... truck probably weighs around 80-82% of rating/max lifting capacity.

That would be a truck weighing 24.3 tons, then, as a mean. Thanks for the tip! I guess if we have to eye-ball it, we'd better be clear about what we are weighing, no?

SO

Just to be clear, we are talking about a lot of different things here:

1. The Lunar Module - supposedly 17 tons by most citations

2. The Command Module - allegedly 30 tons by Simple Simon's citation (who references 30 tons and where?)

and

3. The Service Module - which must refer to the casing of the LM, correct?

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Despite all my digressions, you might've noticed I was bringing up specifically the high levels of radiation that are not traversable without immensely thick lead walls. That lead must have been built into the Lunar Module because the astro-nots are to have returned within.

Also ... who took this picture?

[Piper]

Also ... who took this picture?

That photo is of the command module and the services module together, the landing module (LM) is apparently detached at this point and this would be where the photo was allegedly taken from, as shown in this artist rendition:

.

Note the stars visible in the painting. ;)

[WHTT]

Quick margin note re radiation.

"William L. Gill, Chief of Crew Systems Division's Radiation Branch, MSC, said that the walls of the Apollo spacecraft would provide most of the radiation shielding required for the crew. Astronauts would have special shielding devices only for their eyes. "

[hoi.polloi]

WHTT, we don't give a sh#t what NASA says. Don't you get it? They have been lying to us.

Now, if you are playing moron just to slyly link to "debunking" sites in the worthless hope that you will drain people away from the concept of a complete hoax, you have another thing coming. The rules of our forum clearly state you must have an appreciation and respect for our research thusfar, which you haven't been showing.

We tolerate a bit of innocent doubt, but when you start hemming and hawing through things like a numb shill-link posting robot that can't respond to questions, you start looking like a CIA/NASA hired douche.

What kind of researcher do you think you are coming across as? Someone who "stumbled" on September Clues, sent me a personal message saying "Psst - buddy, this is just between you and me. I think we're friends." (which, dear readers, this WHTT essentially did, for what purpose I cannot say) and then "stumbled" upon ridiculously bad so-called debunking sites and thought you just might "share" them with all our fascinated readers?

(By the way, do you know what levels of radiation we are talking about? This is apparently not something wearing sun-glasses is going to prevent from ripping through even thick lead shielding.)

You have not answered a single question, apart from the utmost speculative, and in the most banal and worthlessly dismissive way. If you are not a shill, prove it now. Explain in detail which arguments we've listed in this thread for NASA's "Apollo" stories being a hoax you find doubtful?

Present cogent arguments that support scientific inquiry into the evidence given us.

This is your first and last warning. Further bullshitting will not be tolerated from you.

[hoi.polloi]

Also ... who took this picture?

That photo is of the command module and the services module together, the landing module (LM) is apparently detached at this point and this would be where the photo was allegedly taken from, as shown in this artist rendition:

.

Note the stars visible in the painting. ;)

Sorry, but where did the LM come from in this picture? It was supposed to have been attached to the nose of that cone? We are to gather from the little rocket boosts thus illustrated that this jettisoned the spacecraft that the astronots relied on for the rest of their journey -- to the surface of the moon, back into outer space and home? That would mean the Lunar Module must act as long-distance space craft by itself?!? What precisely crashed in the ocean upon their arrival back at Earth?

[hoi.polloi]

Look, this is getting ridiculous. Nobody can provide an answer on the following?

1. The Command Module weighs 33 tons - how is this possible?

2. The Lunar Module, of aluminum and titanium - deliberately lightweight materials - supposedly weighs 17 tons. How is this possible?

3. How was this 40-ton monstrosity attached/constructed? And how did it transform into a landable space-craft? How did the astronauts get home? What parts were dispensed where?

4. What exactly consistently shielded the astronauts from high levels of radiation? Why is it that several feet thick of lead is consistently cited by modern physicists working at ESA who I've talked to as the only thing capable of the requisite shielding, and where is there evidence of such lead in the Apollo missions? If the weight of 30,320,000 grams for the command module were in cubic centimeters of radiation-shielding lead (11.342 grams per cc) you'd have 2.67 cubic meters of lead. That means, if the walls of the command module were 25 cm thick, you'd have about 10-11 meters of surface area around the module made entirely of lead. Considering the module is most definitely not made exclusively of lead, and considering there are clear windows to outer space, it begs the first question, and an additional one: how does a supposedly heavy module explain its ability to traverse the distances? IT DOESN'T!

Furthermore, even if this lead shielding were barely enough (which it isn't, since there are stories of no amount of shielding being enough under certain conditions of powerful, space based radiation), how did the comparatively lightweight, unshielded Lunar Module make the journey to and back?

All of these questions should be answerable, in text, in this forum, without external links to "debunking" sites or meandering tangents. Let's please answer Simon's and my questions ... and if that is impossible, can we just settle on the fact that the Apollo stories are slightly unreasonable?

[Jazza]

Look, this is getting ridiculous. Nobody can provide an answer on the following?

1. The Command Module weighs 33 tons - how is this possible?

I answered this one but my post seems to have disappeared. :unsure:

The answer is that it doesn't, nor did anyone claim that it does. The service module and the command module together way about 30 tons. The command module only weights about 5 to 6 tons.

The moon landings are a load of crap, but I don't think the weight of the command module is a smoking gun.

[hoi.polloi]

Look, this is getting ridiculous. Nobody can provide an answer on the following?

1. The Command Module weighs 33 tons - how is this possible?

I answered this one but my post seems to have disappeared. :unsure:

The answer is that it doesn't, nor did anyone claim that it does. The service module and the command module together way about 30 tons. The command module only weights about 5 to 6 tons.

The moon landings are a load of crap, but I don't think the weight of the command module is a smoking gun.

I deleted it because it wasn't very clear. Jazza, thank you for being persistent in your point in context with our questions.

What is the Service Module? The metal tube-shaped bit with rocket?

[Jazza]

Yeah that's the Service module. It was meant to be a mini rocket that would get the command module from the moon all the way back to the earth. The command module once getting to earth would then disconnect and come back down through the atmosphere by itself.

The service module would indeed be rather heavy, as it was supposed to be a rocket (A rocket that in any other context but space travel would be called very large and very powerful).

My only question regarding the command and service module is if they were real functioning devices. They obviously didn't go to the moon, but did they at least go up into orbit so as to come back down a week later as part of the show? As far as 60's technology is concerned they did seem feasible as devices in their own right (much like the Saturn V rocket).

[hoi.polloi]

Yeah that's the Service module. It was meant to be a mini rocket that would get the command module from the moon all the way back to the earth. The command module once getting to earth would then disconnect and come back down through the atmosphere by itself.

The service module would indeed be rather heavy, as it was supposed to be a rocket (A rocket that in any other context but space travel would be called very large and very powerful).

My only question regarding the command and service module is if they were real functioning devices. They obviously didn't go to the moon, but did they at least go up into orbit so as to come back down a week later as part of the show? As far as 60's technology is concerned they did seem feasible as devices in their own right (much like the Saturn V rocket).

Okay. Got it. So the LM (Lunar Module) comes out of the SM (Service Module) + CM (Command Module) and lands by itself on the moon. Then, it takes off from the moon and reconnects with the orbiting (?) SM + CM, and the entire 3 return together to Earth?!

Also, I'm concerned that the SM+CM listed together is 33 tons, whereas the Lunar site shown by WHTT writes specifically that weight to just the CM, whereas the SM is listed without a weight at all. Please, help me figure out why the CM is not 33 tons as listed on that site, and is 7 tons as you have claimed? Thanks.

[WHTT]

Dear Hoi,

Upon reflection, I think I understand your frustration with my contributions, especially considering I think you've mentioned elsewhere bad experiences at 9/11 forums.

I don't seem to be contributing much of value to your intent here. I've decided to give posting a rest... or you can delete my account, as you wish. I work long hours (teaching) seven days a week, so I'll be doing both of us a favor. :)

I would mention, however, you have edited my post above without leaving any mention of having done so.

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How was the LUNAR MODULE attached to the COMMAND MODULE ?
How did the astronots transfer from one to the other?

No answer.

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I didn't write "no answer" -- although my post now certainly appears as if I had!

What I DID do was suggest some search terms [about 5 words including "hatch"] which bring up explicitly relevant informative hits ANSWERING simon's two questions. I recall mentioning some of them being PDFs and having no time/patience for dealing with PDFs as I posted. AND, I included a link which turned up in that search--what you refer to as me slyly linking to a "debunking site." I'd never before seen nor heard of that site, but the page I linked to addressedthe question of transferring from one module to the other in great detail. It was the only page of that site I'd ever seen at the time I posted.

I think you may have deleted another post written by me after that in its entireity. I would suggest that when you edit or delete posts, you make it clear that that action has been taken. I believe that would give your forum more credibility.



Ciao,
WHTT (We Hold These Truths)

[simonshack]

Thanks Jazza for your contributions,

To be sure, the picture you posted is of the Apollo 15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_module
It is now clear that the 30,332kg figure(30.332metric tons) -1metric ton=1000kgs - is the combined alleged weight of both the Command Module (5,809kg) and the Service Module (24,523kg).
(The above weights are for Apollo15- as far as I can gather)

Here is a drawing of the thing.
APOLLO COMMAND AND SERVICE MODULES


WickedPedia also provides some info about the materials/& construction of the Command Module:

Construction
The command module's inner structure was an aluminum "sandwich" consisting of a welded aluminum inner skin, a thermally bonded honeycomb core, and a thin aluminum "face sheet". The central heat shield consisted of 40 individual panels interspersed with several holes and openings for the reaction control engines and after-compartment equipment access. The central compartment structure consisted of an inner aluminum face sheet with a steel honeycomb core, a glass-phenolic ablative honeycomb heat shield, a layer of q-felt fibrous insulation, a pore seal, a moisture barrier, and a layer of aluminized PET film thermal strips.

No mention of lead.

Here's a picture described on WickedPedia as being:
"The Eagle in lunar orbit immediately after separating from Columbia" - and the picture carries this caption:
"File:Apollo 11 Lunar Module EAGLE in landing configuration in lunar orbit from the Command and Service Module Columbia.jpg"


Here is, apparently, the exact same object - now safely landed on the lunar surface.
I guess the boxes on top were black on one side - and white on the other?...



Another image of another "Eagle" Lunar module (alleged Apollo 16 mission) :


http://www.english-online.at/technology ... anding.htm


This is how Michael Collins describes how he snapped this marvellous picture from his Mother Ship:

"After lifting off from the Moon, Eagle approaches the Command Module during rendezvous. Astronaut Michael Collins, who remained on board the Command Module for the entire trip, remembers taking this photograph: "Little by little, they grew closer, steady, as if on rails, and I thought 'What a beautiful sight,'one that had to be recorded. As I reached for my Hasselblad, suddenly the Earth popped up over the horizon, directly behind Eagle. I could not have staged it any better, but the alignment was not of my doing, just a happy coincidence. I suspect a lot of good photography is like that, some serendipitous happenstance beyond the control of the photographer."

He could not have staged it any better - nope...

[Jazza]

Okay. Got it. So the LM (Lunar Module) comes out of the SM (Service Module) + CM (Command Module) and lands by itself on the moon. Then, it takes off from the moon and reconnects with the orbiting (?) SM + CM, and the entire 3 return together to Earth?!

Actually, the Lunar Module was connected to the bottom of the Service module, and the LM never came back to earth. After reconnection to let the Astronauts get into the Command module, the LM was then let loose to crash into the moon. The LM was stored in the tapered section under the Service module (The grey part)



Considering that the Command + Service module weighed about 30 tons (plus a lot more due to g force during take off) and was connected to the Saturn V rocket by the Lunar module that was built like this,



Then the idea of an actual moon landing becomes more absurd. The Lunar module would have been ripped to shreds during take off. (and don't ask me how the Service module with a massive rocket nozzle on the bottom connected to the Lunar Module. I have no idea :lol: )

Also, I'm concerned that the SM+CM listed together is 33 tons, whereas the Lunar site shown by WHTT writes specifically that weight to just the CM, whereas the SM is listed without a weight at all. Please, help me figure out why the CM is not 33 tons as listed on that site, and is 7 tons as you have claimed? Thanks.

This from Nasa

The Apollo 11 CSM mass of 28,801 kg was the launch mass including propellants and expendables, of this the Command Module (CM 107) had a mass of 5557 kg and the Service Module (SM 107) 23,244 kg.

I have no idea what the other site WHTT posted is (I couldn't see any link in his posts?) but whatever the site is, it is wrong. Nasa never claimed 30 tons, and all info comes from them.