The SSSS - early musings - 2013>2015

If NASA faked the moon landings, does the agency have any credibility at all? Was the Space Shuttle program also a hoax? Is the International Space Station another one? Do not dismiss these hypotheses offhand. Check out our wider NASA research and make up your own mind about it all.
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simonshack
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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:32 pm

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ELEVATION / DECLINATION : the far-fetchedness of the Copernican model



I'm probably repeating myself here - but I will take this liberty since I believe this may be a kind of "Ockham's Razor" proof of the Copernican system's general implausibility.

It is an inescapable fact that we see the Sun ascending and descending from our earthly frame of reference(from -23,5° to +23,5°) in our sky between the two solstices - the oblique angle (as seen from Earth) of the near-common plane of the Sun-Moon-and planets "FAMILY" inverting around June and December. Logically, we have only two options for interpreting this:

OPTION 1: the EARTH's equatorial plane is tilted by 23.5° towards the "FAMILY".

OPTION 2
: the ecliptic plane of the "FAMILY" is tilted by 23,5° towards Earth.

These may, at first sight, seem to be equivalent, due to the inter-rotational nature of the system that we are analyzing. However, the notion of 'equivalence' needs to evaluated under a more 'rational/philosophical angle' - insofar as the equivalence of two models, in a properly-formulated debate, should also integrate a plausibility-factor connected to our intuitive understanding of nature.

To be sure, Option 1 is what the Copernican model contends. It is, undoubtedly, the more complex explanation for our planet's seasons - and has therefore no particular advantage as to its foundation in empirical logic.

Here is an academically-backed, online 'Season Simulator' - by the Nebraska University:
http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animat ... lator.html

I have made (and captioned) two screenshots of that simulator, showing the Sun's declination between mid-Aug and mid-Oct. Here they are:

Image

The five arrows at upper right seem to suggest that vertical Sun-Earth angle is shifting by 23,6°. Fine. The problem is, I just cannot see this happening in nature. The Copernican model asks us to envision the Earth, tilted at a fix 23,5°and at a PERPENDICULAR angle to the "FAMILY", hurling at high speed around the Sun's ecliptic - all the while 'bobbing' its equatorial plane up and down, century after century. It simply sounds like a pretty far-fetched contention, does it not?

Of course, the above Nebraska University simulator faithfully integrates the Copernican calculations - and so appears to mathematically / geometrically validate the theory of Earth revolving around the Sun.

To account for how we actually see the Sun descending and ascending through the seasons (from our earthly perspective) the Copernican model had to introduce the curious and complex notion of Earth's "axial tilt". No known laws of physics can actually explain this odd/ peculiar 'wobbling' of Earth's alleged motion around the Sun. As it is, Earth's "23,5° axial tilt" appears to be an 'afterthought' of sorts, a post-postulation calculus computed in order to 'make things add up'.

OPTION 2 would therefore appear to be the correct - or at least the less far-fetched - option. Earth is stable at a given 0° plane, rotating around itself - and all the orbits of the "FAMILY" (tilted by 23.5°towards Earth) revolve around Earth. So why do we, in reality, actually do see the Sun declining by 23,6° between August and October? Here is how the SSSS most simply visualizes this seasonal solar descent that we can see in our skies. No need for a 'tilted and 'wobbling' Earth (although it calmly rotates on itself in one place - with the Moon circling around it) - and no need for Earth's alleged annual 1-billion km journey around the Sun (at speeds of 108.000km/h!) :
Image
.

The Copernican model proposes a series of bizarre, physically-astounding planetary motions / interactions which, one may say, defy common sense. The SSSS, with its simple 23,5° angle of the "FAMILY's" ecliptic in relation to Earth's 'equatorial plane' is, at least, in harmony what we can see from Earth with our own eyes - such as the observational declination data of the Sun, and the fact that Polaris never moves from above our North Pole!

In other words, it would seem more plausible that the SUN revolves around EARTH - and not the other way round.

****
(Wow, Agraposo: what a coincidence that we both stumbled into that Nebraska University simulator - at almost the same time!) :lol:

POST EDITED FOR CLARITY AND 'STYLE' - August 17, 2013.

agraposo
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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by agraposo » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:04 am

I like this simulator, I've been using it since I started to participate in this thread.

http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2386552
simonshack wrote: Image

The five arrows at upper right seem to suggest that vertical Sun-Earth angle is shifting by 23,6°.
The yellow arrows in the upper right graphic represent the direction of the sun's rays, perpendicular to the line dividing day and night, and gives the sun's altitude for the observer at the given latitude.

In your diagram, the sun's declination varies 23,6º between August and October, but look at the sun's altitude, it changes from 76.1º to 80.3º, only 4º!, because you have located the observer in the Earth's equator. If the observer is near the north pole, the sun's altitude will vary from 19.2º to -4,4º, a difference of 23.6º precisely :)

August 16th
Image

October 18th
Image

Did you see my previous post where I used the same simulator to show that the six-month duration of day and night at the poles are also explained by the heliocentric model?

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:38 am

agraposo wrote: In your diagram, the sun's declination varies 23,6º between August and October, but look at the sun's altitude, it changes from 76.1º to 80.3º, only 4º!, because you have located the observer in the Earth's equator. If the observer is near the north pole, the sun's altitude will vary from 19.2º to -4,4º, a difference of 23.6º precisely :)
Well, I don't know what you're on about, Agraposo: the Sun's declination at any given timeline - as recorded by the NOAA is the same for every location on Earth. Whether you are in Sydney or in Oslo, the solar declination towards Earth will be the same - according to official data.

Of course, anyone standing at the Equator will see the Sun moving only 4° in the sky between August and October - LATERALLY! This actually goes to confirm the SSSS model. But in NO way can the Sun appear to descend vertically by 23,6° under the Copernican model.

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:04 am

simonshack wrote: Of course, anyone standing at the Equator will see the Sun moving only 4° in the sky between August and October - LATERALLY! This actually goes to confirm the SSSS model. But in NO way can the Sun appear to descend vertically by 23,6° under the Copernican model.
Anyone standing on the Equator, e.g. at Mombasa, Kenya, my favourite location on the Equator, around March 20 or September 20 will see the Sun rise at 6 am and set at 6 pm and at 12 am it will be at 90° zenith straight above your head. But at 12 am June 20 the Sun will be seen at 66.5°inclination north of the Equator (and not 90° straight above you), and 12 am 20 December it will be seen at 66.5° inclination south of the Equator. But the Sun always rises at 6 am and sets at 6 pm at the Equator due to Earth rotating around itself and the poles. It seems we agree on that.
Why the inclination at 12 am changes from 66.5° south to 90° zenith and to 66.6°north back to 90° zenith and 66.5°south during the year may be due to Earth orbiting the Sun but I may be wrong as usual.

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:36 pm

Heiwa wrote: Anyone standing on the Equator, e.g. at Mombasa, Kenya, my favourite location on the Equator, around March 20 or September 20 will see the Sun rise at 6 am and set at 6 pm and at 12 am it will be at 90° zenith straight above your head. But at 12 am June 20 the Sun will be seen at 66.5°inclination north of the Equator (and not 90° straight above you), and 12 am 20 December it will be seen at 66.5° inclination south of the Equator. But the Sun always rises at 6 am and sets at 6 pm at the Equator due to Earth rotating around itself and the poles. It seems we agree on that.
Why the inclination at 12 am changes from 66.5° south to 90° zenith and to 66.6°north back to 90° zenith and 66.5°south during the year may be due to Earth orbiting the Sun but I may be wrong as usual.
Exactly, Heiwa.

At the Equator, you will see the Sun gradually moving 'sideways' back and forth above you during the year, by +23,5* and -23,5°- for a total yearly variation of 47°. Your 66,5° figure is, of course, 90°minus 23,5°. Most luckily, the Sun hits the zenith on only two occasions every year - as it passes the equinoxes (March20 - September20). I bet you wouldn't like Mombasa as much as you do if the Sun remained close to zenith for several months - as Copernicus's system implies, only briefly moving away from right above your head around the solstices and providing a short period of relief from the atrocious heat that would ensue! Of course, in the absurd Copernican model, the Sun would remain smack above the Equator at noon for many months and the place (as indeed ALL locations at the Equator ) would be a blazing barbecue pit! Thankfully, this is not the case, as the SSSS suggests - and you can still enjoy visiting Mombasa without the need for a NASA spacesuit complete with cryogenic cooling system.

Image

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by agraposo » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:40 pm

Exactly, Heiwa, I agree with your comments, except in one detail: noon is written as 12 pm, not 12 am:
The 30th edition of the U.S. Government Style Manual (2008) sections 9.54 and 12.9b recommends the use of "12 a.m." for midnight and "12 p.m." for noon
Noon

That's why I prefer the 24-hour clock :)
Heiwa wrote:But at 12 am June 20 the Sun will be seen at 66.5°inclination north of the Equator (and not 90° straight above you), and 12 am 20 December it will be seen at 66.5° inclination south of the Equator. But the Sun always rises at 6 am and sets at 6 pm at the Equator due to Earth rotating around itself and the poles. It seems we agree on that.
Agreed! The change in sun's altitude during the day is due to the Earth rotating around itself.
Heiwa wrote: Why the inclination at 12 am changes from 66.5° south to 90° zenith and to 66.6°north back to 90° zenith and 66.5°south during the year may be due to Earth orbiting the Sun but I may be wrong as usual.
Agreed! The change in sun's altitude during the year at the same hour is due to the Earth orbiting the Sun. Do you know what figure give this throughout the year? The analemma!!!

Image

The sun's declination always goes from 23.5º (June solstice) to -23.5º (December solstice). But the sun's altitude during the year depends on the observer's latitude. In the north pole, the sun's altitude and the sun's declination are the same. Why? Because the sun's daily path is parallel to the observer's horizon in the north pole.

Image

Simon, in this discussion I don't pretend to rule out your model, what I'm arguing since the beginning is that the heliocentric view and the tychonian view are equivalent, and more things are needed to decide which one is correct, not just geometry, mathematics and the observational data available at the time when these models where proposed (more on this later).

Do you know that the Tychonian model with a rotating Earth around itself was proposed by one of Tycho's students?

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/ufhatch/p ... -WSYS.html
Last edited by agraposo on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:02 pm

agraposo wrote:Exactly, Heiwa, I agree with your comments, except in one detail: noon is written as 12 pm, not 12 am:
The 30th edition of the U.S. Government Style Manual (2008) sections 9.54 and 12.9b recommends the use of "12 a.m." for midnight and "12 p.m." for noon
p.m. is Latin for post meridiem which means after noon so 12 pm is midnight.
a.m. is also Latin - ante meridiem - before noon so 12 am is noon.
At least in Africa and according my Idiomatic and Syntactic English Dictionary issued 1942 at Tokyo, Japan. USA is of course 12 hrs behind there, which may explain things.
I am sorry but I do not trust the U.S Government. Obama was in fact born at Mombasa and it is a pity that he cannot accept that. Faking your birth place is really something.

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by agraposo » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:39 pm

agraposo wrote: In your diagram, the sun's declination varies 23,6º between August and October, but look at the sun's altitude, it changes from 76.1º to 80.3º, only 4º!, because you have located the observer in the Earth's equator. If the observer is near the north pole, the sun's altitude will vary from 19.2º to -4,4º, a difference of 23.6º precisely :)
Oops! This is an error from my part. I looked at the diagram too quickly. The change in sun's altitude is from 76.1º to 90º (overhead) and then from 90º to 80.3º, that is 13,9º + 9,7º = 23.6º. In other words, the change in sun's declination is the same that the change in sun's altitude, when seen at the same hour throughout the year.

Anyway the conclusion is still valid, there is a change of the sun's declination of 23.6º between August and October. In this series of images, you can see that the sun (overhead, as pointed by the yellow arrow) is above the Earth's equator on August 18th. Then, on September 20th the sun (overhead) is over the Earth's equator, and on October 20th, the sun (overhead) is below the Earth's equator.

So, you see that the sun is descending 23.6º between August and October. To see this, imagine you're viewing the Earth from the sun, and you will see the Earth moving like a spinning top (use the simulator and look at the top right image).

August 18th
Image

September 20th
Image

October 20th
Image

agraposo
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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by agraposo » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:31 am

The rotation of a spinning top, and Earth.

Note: this is not the precession movement of the Earth's axis, but the movement of the Earth as seen from the Sun, when looking always to the Earth. The axis is spinning, while maintaining the 23.5º tilt, and the equator swings up and down (and the sun, as seen from the Earth, appears throughout the year to ascend and descend 23.5º up and down the equator, 47º in total).

Image
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi ... lide01.gif

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:26 pm

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Dear all,

I have edited 'for clarity and style' my above post titled "ELEVATION / DECLINATION..." Please read it again - as its first version must have sounded far too presumptuous / hot-headed! The sun is blazing over here this summer - and my brain is probably getting a tad overheated...

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
agraposo wrote:Simon, in this discussion I don't pretend to rule out your model, what I'm arguing since the beginning is that the heliocentric view and the tychonian view are equivalent, and more things are needed to decide which one is correct, not just geometry, mathematics and the observational data available at the time when these models where proposed (more on this later).
Dear Agraposo,

Oh absolutely, I see what you mean and, in fact, your comments inspired me to revise my above post. Please do re-read it as I think I've cleared up my position and stance about it all. The question of 'equivalence of the theories', for instance, is something that I would like you to assess and view through the wider, "rational / philosophical lens" which I now propose. To be sure, there is nothing more daunting nowadays than challenging universally established theories such as that of Copernicus and co. The full power of the modern-day scientific community is what we are facing here - if indeed this is a worthwhile thought-exercise and our 'revisionist' efforts have any merit (which, so far, I feel they have).

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Flabbergasted » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:43 pm

agraposo wrote:Exactly, Heiwa, I agree with your comments, except in one detail: noon is written as 12 pm, not 12 am:
The 30th edition of the U.S. Government Style Manual (2008) sections 9.54 and 12.9b recommends the use of "12 a.m." for midnight and "12 p.m." for noon
Noon
This thing about a.m. and p.m. seems to be an eternal problem. In reality, noon should be 00:00 p.m., and midnight should be 00:00 a.m. There is really no such thing as "12:00".

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:16 am

For the purposes of this thread, it might help if we got rid of "savings time" too! The star-gazers got it right, it should be a count of minutes within the hours of 0 through 23, or 1 through 24.

But anyway, we shouldn't fall in love with standards too much. It's Earth's diversity that makes it interesting.

:P

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by agraposo » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:40 pm

simonshack wrote: It is an inescapable fact that we see the Sun ascending and descending from our earthly frame of reference(from -23,5° to +23,5°) in our sky between the two solstices - the oblique angle (as seen from Earth) of the near-common plane of the Sun-Moon-and planets "FAMILY" inverting around June and December. Logically, we have only two options for interpreting this:

OPTION 1: the EARTH's equatorial plane is tilted by 23.5° towards the "FAMILY".

OPTION 2
: the ecliptic plane of the "FAMILY" is tilted by 23,5° towards Earth.
Option 1 is the heliocentric view of the solar system, where the Sun is motionless respect to the fixed stars.
Option 2 is the geocentric view of the solar system, where the Earth is motionless respect to the fixed stars (but rotating around itself).

Thus the main difference is which object is supposed to be motionless. Option 2 is the most natural choice, as we live on the Earth. From a geometric point of view, both models yield the same results, but it can be argued which one is simpler.

Between the Copernican and Ptolemaic systems, the Copernican is clearly the simpler model. Between the Copernican and the Tychonian models, both Kepler and Galileo chose the Copernican model.

I think that we, as humans, see the geocentric view as the correct one, but the same could be said with respect to Mars or other planet. From an aerocentric (Mars centric) point of view, a model of the Sun and other planets orbiting Mars (with the "FAMILY" plane tilted) would be seen as the correct one, but the heliocentric view will also be geometrically valid. Then, why do we suppose the Earth-centric view is preferable over the Mars-centric (or other planet) view?

For me, this makes no sense, and the heliocentric view should be the correct one.

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by agraposo » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:52 pm

Simon, hoy does the SSSS model explain the precession of equinoxes? If the Earth is fixed, then the "FAMILY" plane is the one which should be wobbling. Does this make sense to you?

Image
http://syzygyastro.hubpages.com/hub/The ... Precession

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Re: The SSSS

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:06 pm

Then, why do we suppose the Earth-centric view is preferable over the Mars-centric (or other planet) view?
Well, for starters, nobody has actually been to Mars. Or the Sun, for that matter. But maybe we should stick to mixing in facts and information instead of strictly what 'feels' right to each individual philosopher. Having said that, yes, the precession of the solar family does make sense to me. And, as usual, just as much sense as Tycho's enemies' ideas that it's all Earth behaviorisms.

The SSSS is Simon's model, it's named after him for that reason, and I guess it will evolve as he decides what he personally thinks is going on in it. It has been fun to help visualize things along the way, and I am eager to explore it further when he puts time into it.

(For me, I am more fascinated at the moment by the lack of centripetal force indicating we are on some kind of body at rest rather than one in rapid motion, also re-testing Koreshanity's assumptions, examining the behavior of light as it has been theorized by them and by Airy's experiment and others. But this thread is for Simon's model, not other models.)

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