The SSSS - early musings - 2013>2015

If NASA faked the moon landings, does the agency have any credibility at all? Was the Space Shuttle program also a hoax? Is the International Space Station another one? Do not dismiss these hypotheses offhand. Check out our wider NASA research and make up your own mind about it all.
Locked
lux
Member
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by lux » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:34 am

I believe that Heiwa is only following your request to state what he feels is unclear about your question. It appears to me that Heiwa is asking you to clarify what you mean by "the earth revolves on the same plane as the sun."

Heiwa
Banned
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:07 am

simonshack wrote: My question is: how can the Sun's elevation in our skies appear to dramatically decline between August and October (from a Northern Hemisphere perspective)? If the Sun's ecliptic is on the same plane of Earth (which maintains a steady 23,5* inclination to the Sun) why would we see the Sun declining dramatically between August and October?

Please just answer this question - if you can.
I thought it was obvious. Our 23.5° tilted and spherical planet Earth revolves around itself (the axis is between the North and South poles and it is tilted 23.5° relative the Sun orbit) every 24 hrs and orbits the Sun in a year and the amount of solar energy it gets changes. Winter happens when the Earth’s North or South poles are furthest from the Sun pointing away. Summer happens whenever the North Pole or South Pole points towards the Sun. So when it is winter at the North pole, it is summer at the South pole. The Sun is higher in the sky in the summer at 12 hrs am, when days are longer, and lower in the sky during the winter at 12 hrs am, when days are shorter. All due to fact that Earth orbits the Sun in a year, while rotating 360° around its own axis between the poles every 24 hrs.
I doubt it can happen if the Sun orbits planet Earth.

simonshack
Administrator
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:09 pm
Location: italy
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:09 am

*

I hope this makes it possible for you to understand my simple question, Heiwa .

Image

If you can explain it, please do.

If you cannot explain it, please just type: "I cannot explain it" - and spare us all from further empty bla-bla. Thanks.

Perhaps NASA would know ? :mellow:

Heiwa
Banned
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:12 am

I thought I explained it in my previous post? Spherical Earth with us in space is rotating 360° around a 23.5° tilted axis of itself relative the Sun (1 rotation/24hrs), while it orbits the Sun (1 orbit/year) at great distance. It means that at noon the Sun will be seen by us around the Med, while we rotate with the Earth, higher in the sky in August than October. The Earth axis of rotation is pointing closer to the Sun in August than in October because the Earth orbits the Sun. You follow? I assume most Italian astronomers can explain it better than me to you. Ask them. Tycho got it all wrong at Ven.
If you are above the Polar circle you will not see the Sun at all certain days just before Christmas but the Sun will be there 24/24 around 21 June.

simonshack
Administrator
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:09 pm
Location: italy
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:18 am

Heiwa wrote:The Earth axis of rotation is pointing closer to the Sun in August than in October because the Earth orbits the Sun. You follow?

"The Earth axis of rotation is pointing closer to the Sun in August than in October because the Earth orbits the Sun."


???

No - daddy. That is not the case - and it wouldn't explain the 22,8° rate of declination anyway. Any better explanation?

"It means that at noon the Sun will be seen by us around the Med, while we rotate with the Earth, higher in the sky in August than October."

"Higher in the sky?" No, Heiwa. Earth reportedly circles on the same ecliptic plane as the Sun. As NASA will tell you, Earth's orbital inclination is...

Image
"The ecliptic is the apparent path of the Sun on the celestial sphere, and is the basis for the ecliptic coordinate system. It also refers to the plane of this path, which is coplanar with both the orbit of the Earth around the Sun and the apparent orbit of the Sun around the Earth". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic

simonshack
Administrator
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:09 pm
Location: italy
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:31 am

Heiwa wrote: If you are above the Polar circle you will not see the Sun at all certain days just before Christmas but the Sun will be there 24/24 around 21 June.
Thanks for the info, Heiwa - but I'm Norwegian/Swedish you know... And, for your information, above the Polar circle, you can get more than 160 days without ever seeing the sun (and more than 170 at the South Pole). Besides, what on Earth has that got to do with my above question? Are you using a NASA-Answers text book?

Heiwa
Banned
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:52 pm

simonshack wrote:
Heiwa wrote: If you are above the Polar circle you will not see the Sun at all certain days just before Christmas but the Sun will be there 24/24 around 21 June.
Thanks for the info, Heiwa - but I'm Norwegian/Swedish you know... And, for your information, above the Polar circle, you can get more than 160 days without ever seeing the sun (and more than 170 at the South Pole). Besides, what on Earth has that got to do with my above question? Are you using a NASA-Answers text book?
The Polar circle is at 66.5° latitude which means that on 21 December noon the Sun will not rise over the horizon there. That night is then 24 hrs long. 182 or 183 days later at midnight the Sun will never dip below the horizon at the Polar circle - there is one day with 24 hrs Sun above the horizon at the Polar circle. But the Sun will probably not be seen more than 23.5° above the horizon at noon either on that long day. Reason is that Earth axis of rotation is tilted 23.5° relative the plane it orbits around the Sun in.
It would appear that the declination of the Sun at the Polar circle is exactly 23.5° (at 21 June noon) and it takes half a year to become 0° (at 21 December noon).
At the equator, e.g. Mombasa Kenya, at 21 March or September noon, you will see the Sun right above you at 90° (zenith). At 21 June or December, noon, you will see it at a 66.5° angle (in the north and south direction resp). Can you guess why?
Have you ever been to Mombasa? President Obama was born there.

hoi.polloi
Member
Posts: 5061
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:24 pm

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:26 pm

Perhaps I am wrong, but the SSSS in an evenly circular, evenly moving orbit seems to run into some angular issue if Heiwa's claim is true.
model_hp9.jpg
If, as in fig 9, we have the three bright blue spots representing Earth at the December solstice, equinoxes and June solstice, the equator doesn't hit that sweet 0° angle at the halfway parts of the year (being March and September collectively represented by the middle blue spot).
model_hp10.jpg
Only in fig 10, where the Earth actually accelerates through the SSSS summer and decelerates as it approaches SSSS winter do we have the angles adjusting for the Earth's movement. Correct?

If so, that must be why summer vacation feels so short! :P

(Sorry, that's totally a joke. Not trying to confuse the issue with a discussion about time.)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

simonshack
Administrator
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:09 pm
Location: italy
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by simonshack » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:06 pm

*

Hoi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

I think I've finally nailed it! Of course, I will have to eat some humble pie as to my original SSSS assumption that Earth makes a small, perpendicular "doughnut-orbit" in front of the Sun. As it is, I was just 'seeing it' (in my mind) upside down! But how incredibly productive - in terms of establishing the REAL geometry of our solar system - all this digging of ours has turned out to be!

My "doughnut" orbit, as you will easily envision by looking at my below SSSS graphic, is nothing but the Sun's orbit around Earth - as seen from a certain angle. This now means (and I know you will LOVE this!) that our Earth is even more stationary than I previously imagined : it only rotates around itself! The Sun clearly revolves around Earth - along with its 'satellites' Venus (almost same size as Earth) and Mercury (almost same size as the Moon). The whole system appears to be an amazingly balanced clockwork - with a unique set of mechanical motions, the nature of which some of our planet's passengers like Kepler and Newton converted into "laws". Not saying that they were wrong about these laws - yet they may have been missing a few things.

The (in)famous 23.5° "axial tilt of the Earth" is nothing but the Sun's orbital inclination to the Earth itself. It adds up to a 47° shift of the Sun's position in our skies - between June and December. This also goes to explain, for instance, why we see the Sun declining most dramatically between August and October - along with all the planets on its own ecliptic plane: Mercury, Venus - AND the Moon!

Ok, so allow me now to revise my original assumptions- and keep calling my brainchild the "SSSS" (without ever forgetting Tycho Brahe's work!):
Image
My above graphic, of course, does not quite respect all the proportions of interplanetary distances - and is only a way of visualizing how Earth, the Sun, the Moon, Venus and Mercury interact geometrically. However, it certainly adds up to most of what we know about our solar system. Please understand that a whole bunch of officially released data has gone into making this graphic - all of which match up with the above model. This is no 'conspiracy theory'. It is just a new assessment/ interpretation of what knowledge we have today as to the motions of our surrounding planets. The old astromomers of yesteryear where simply unable to visualize the system in "3-D" fashion!

And no, my 23,5° tilt illustrated above (adding up to a 47°tilt to us earthly observers) is NOT the same thing as to say (like Copernicus did) that Earth has a 23,5° axial tilt - and flies around the Sun at 108.000km/h, completing an almost 1 billion-km-long journey around the Sun!

And yes, I have also verified how this would jive with what anyone living at the Earth's equator would see. To be sure, the Sun's declination also shifts at the equator throughout the year (just like at any other Earth location). Yet, the equator being at the pivotal center of the 47° "seesaw" of our Sun's orbit, we can see that it experiences exactly what would be expected from a geometrical point of view. This is obviously hard to explain with words - but I am now ready to confront ANY astronomer and defend ANY aspect of the SSSS model.

In fact, this SSSS configuration would go to explain the empirical observations regarding the annual motions of our SUN, our surrounding planets and our Moon ALL OF WHICH (Sun, Mercury, Venus, Moon) tilt in unison by plus or minus 23,5° in the course of one year. All of this is easily verifiable today by consulting the wonderful NEAVE planetarium.

I now personally feel satisfied to have cleared up for myself a whole lot of aberrations contained in the Copernican Solar System - as taught in schools still today. My SSSS makes far more sense to me - and all I'm doing here is sharing this with you, the reader. I have illustrated it to the best of my capacities - and it is now up to you to evaluate its validity.

scud
Member
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:56 pm

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by scud » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:16 pm

Of course, a ‘Geocentrist’ would argue that in order to explain the seasons from the acceptance of a non rotating, completely static Earth, the Sun must be performing a heliacal (spiral) orbit from north to south and vice versa every six months.
As the Sun approaches its zenith (either top or bottom of this spiral) its longitudinal movement slows, accounting for Simon’s well pointed out anomaly within the Heliocentric model.
Also, discounting the notion of the accuracy of our 24 hour clocks compared to the varying celestial movements, this solar, heliacal rise and fall could also account for the Analemma, since recorded images north and south of Earth’s equator shows a perfect mirror image of the phenomena.. http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang ... ks-like-a/

I’ve been following this thread with great interest and am truly impressed with the work, original thinking (and Hoi’s excellent animations + contributions) that have gone into it. However, if I was to inject one fundamental argument against the SSSS it would be this...If Earth is a ball, is the chartered +/-24,000 mile circumference and is rotating once every man construed 24 hours, then how come our gaseous atmosphere follows the solid surface beneath at all latitudes / altitudes in perfect synch’?
‘Gravity’, as described by Newton and generally accepted as fact does not explain it, neither does ‘friction’ since Earths surface is +70% water (to imagine anyway, that it’s our mountains, hills and trees that are ‘pushing’ this enormous and entirely unconnected mass along with them at greatly differing speeds, is, in my view, quite ridiculous).

lux
Member
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by lux » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:08 am

scud wrote:... if I was to inject one fundamental argument against the SSSS it would be this...If Earth is a ball, is the chartered +/-24,000 mile circumference and is rotating once every man construed 24 hours, then how come our gaseous atmosphere follows the solid surface beneath at all latitudes / altitudes in perfect synch’?
‘Gravity’, as described by Newton and generally accepted as fact does not explain it, neither does ‘friction’ since Earths surface is +70% water (to imagine anyway, that it’s our mountains, hills and trees that are ‘pushing’ this enormous and entirely unconnected mass along with them at greatly differing speeds, is, in my view, quite ridiculous).
I have 2 comments on this:

1. I don't think the movement of the atmosphere is exactly in perfect sync with the Earth's movements. If it were there would be no perceivable wind anywhere on Earth and that is never true. Quite the contrary. There are winds moving in different directions at different altitudes, in different locals, there are circular storms, etc., etc. In fact, the condition of "no wind at all" in a particular location seems somewhat rare or at least only a temporary situation.

2. In order to solve the riddle of the moving atmosphere it seems to me one must first discover the source of the atmosphere. Where did it come from? How was it produced? If it came from gasses emitted from the Earth itself then, since the Earth is rotating, wouldn't the gasses it emits be rotating with it? If it emits these gasses and they are both rotating with the Earth and held near the Earth's surface by gravity then wouldn't the atmosphere continue to more-or-less move along with the Earth's rotation? What would prevent this?

I hope this is not too far afield from the thread's topic but it is my understanding that the SSSS model was inspired in part by the problem of the rotating atmosphere.

Heiwa
Banned
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:43 am

simonshack wrote: And no, my 23,5° tilt illustrated above (adding up to a 47°tilt to us earthly observers) is NOT the same thing as to say (like Copernicus did) that Earth has a 23,5° axial tilt - and flies around the Sun at 108.000km/h, completing an almost 1 billion-km-long journey around the Sun!
So you suggest that it is the Sun that orbits the Earth at 108 000 km/h speed making an almost 1 billion-km-long journey around the Earth every year (and not the other way around), while the Earth just rotates around itself every 24 hrs and is stationary in space (and Universe). The Earth rotation takes place around an axis between the north and south poles and the Sun orbits the Earth at 66.5° angle vis-a-vis this axis. In what planes do Venus and Mars orbit the Sun?

lux
Member
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by lux » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:46 am

I would like to know more about the Earth orbiting around itself. Could the mechanics of this be explained in more detail?

Heiwa
Banned
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by Heiwa » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:21 am

lux wrote:I would like to know more about the Earth orbiting around itself. Could the mechanics of this be explained in more detail?
Planet Earth is apparently almost a sphere that rotates in space (no friction) around an axis between its north and south poles. One 360° turn takes 24 hrs and then another turn starts. The kinetic energy W of the rotating Earth is big but difficult to calculate as the core may be liquid and be rotating at another velocity than the surface. If W had not been applied to Earth one way or another, Earth would not rotate at all. I assume that Earth is made up of parts that were glued together due to gravity when Earth was created 4 530 million years ago (or so) and that each part had its kinetic energy and that the energy of the rotating Earth today is the sum of all that part energies. The parts apparently came out of nowhere a little - 10 000 million years? - earlier. :rolleyes:

lux
Member
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: The SSSS

Unread post by lux » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:22 pm

It was my understanding in the SSSS model that the Earth not only rotates but also moves in a small circular orbit. That is what I wanted more info on -- the circular path of the Earth, not the rotation.

Locked