Satellites : general discussion and musings

If NASA faked the moon landings, does the agency have any credibility at all? Was the Space Shuttle program also a hoax? Is the International Space Station another one? Do not dismiss these hypotheses offhand. Check out our wider NASA research and make up your own mind about it all.
Dmitry
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by Dmitry »

simonshack wrote:"Formerly named"???

What could possibly be the logical reason for changing the names of all these satellites over time? (well, actually in March 2012). Just imagine the utter, formidable aggravation and confusion this must cause among the poor folks in charge of monitoring/ tracking/ servicing this satellite fleet! (Yes, I do realize it may have been a move to 'unify' all these satellites under the Eutelsat banner - but still: years and years - and untold gigabytes of data - gathered for these 'satellites' are now renamed?)
I'm pretty sure that real, technical, identifiers look like ABCD-123456.XYZ/1bis[f1x3d], never change and have nothing common with those marketing names like "PoorBird". This is common practice.

So only poor folks may be sales managers, but most people just don't care at all: the TV works, what else? Gigabytes of data are not lost, maybe only a pack of promotion brochures went to thrash. Or corrected with a pen.

In general, this looks like an ordinary re-branding.
whatsgoingon
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

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Dmitry
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by Dmitry »

whatsgoingon wrote: Are you here to distract and confuse or are you a mathematically-gifted idiot? Excuse by language but it is clear you do not read directions at all. I hope you do not take it the wrong way if you are in fact honest in your error which you are going to repeat for 2-3 days and loose all sense of credit from the rest of our forum members.

To repeat, you do not understand what an elevation angle is and either you are ignoring my geometry or you are not thinking clearly, but I am not going to try to explain it anymore with you. Study what I have until you understand.

I made a drawing of the elevation angle (chi) off the tangent to the sphere (we call earth). As Euclid showed many moons ago, the tangent is 90 degrees to the radius. Hence my right angle. Hopefully, that will help you.

But intuitively, I think not.
Oh, sorry, I forgot to use your notation:

chi = arc tan (h/r + 1 - cos (theta/2)) / sin (theta/2)) - (theta/2) = 14.4°

You may not notice that it is very your right angle that I've subtracted at the last calculation step. I only had the exact value for it plus the elevation angle (OLR = 90°+ chi) one step before. The chord is not the line from that I count the elevation. It is only an additional, temporary element to find all angle values.
whatsgoingon
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

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whatsgoingon
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

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reichstag fireman
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by reichstag fireman »

whatsgoingon wrote: In my revised drawing I get 1800 km arc with a theta of 16.2 deg. Reflection point can be 600 km. Target is N. Algeria on the same azimuth. Cheers.
Lots of things to re-consider here..

Image
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Pinaki
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by Pinaki »

I live in India, in a southern city. And I have not witnessed any moving shining object in sky. Those few times, I did see, I assumed them to be planes.

Frankly, to think that a satellite, so far away from the earth's crust, would appear to a naked eye seems really hard to digest. And to think that a sun's reflection on such a far away satellite is watchable by naked eye sounds silly to me. So, as far as I am concerned, it is a silly argument(shining objects seen by naked eye are satellites) in favor of pro-satellite view. I would think that those shining objects seen by the naked eye must be either much bigger or much closer than what the satellites are supposed to be. So, I assume them to be planes.

Anyway, I assumed that telescopes would show the satellites. So, the question is are any satellites visible through telescope or not?
I have recently contacted my local astronomy club and asked them to participate in their next observations of the International Space Station fly-by. I will expect to see no less than this sort of shape in their powerful optical equipment:
Simon,
what happened? Did you see any object in any optical equipment?
whatsgoingon
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

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simonshack
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by simonshack »

Pinaki wrote:
I have recently contacted my local astronomy club and asked them to participate in their next observations of the International Space Station fly-by. I will expect to see no less than this sort of shape in their powerful optical equipment:
Simon,
what happened? Did you see any object in any optical equipment?
Good heavens. yes - thanks for reminding me... Last time I talked with them (on the phone) they said they had nothing scheduled at the moment and told to get back to them for updates. I tried calling them a few other times but no one answered the phone. I should have kept trying - my bad. Will do so in the next few days.
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by simonshack »

Pinaki wrote:
Frankly, to think that a satellite, so far away from the earth's crust, would appear to a naked eye seems really hard to digest. And to think that a sun's reflection on such a far away satellite is watchable by naked eye sounds silly to me. So, as far as I am concerned, it is a silly argument(shining objects seen by naked eye are satellites) in favor of pro-satellite view. I would think that those shining objects seen by the naked eye must be either much bigger or much closer than what the satellites are supposed to be. So, I assume them to be planes.
Dear Pinaki,

They're not planes - but quite simply Near-Earth asteroids. I don't think anyone would question the existence of Near-Earth asteroids.

Even Wickedpedia knows about the existence of Near-Earth asteroids : <_<
NEAR-EARTH ASTEROIDS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_asteroids (scroll 1/3 down the page)

These are objects of 50 meters or more in diameter in a near-Earth orbit without the tail or coma of a comet. As of May 2012, 8,880 near-Earth asteroids are known, ranging in size from 1 meter up to ~32 kilometers (1036 Ganymed). The number of near-Earth asteroids over one kilometer in diameter is estimated to be about 981. The composition of near-Earth asteroids is comparable to that of asteroids from the asteroid belt, reflecting a variety of asteroid spectral types.
But of course, Wickedpedia feels the need to show us this gif - with this ridiculous caption:

Image
Wiki Caption: "Flyby of asteroid 2004 FH.
The other object that flashes by is an artificial satellite."


Hogwash. No way is that fly-by flash (with tail !!!) an "artificial (i.e. man-made) satellite"! If anything (and providing the above clip is legit) it is what we colloquially call a 'falling star' - a.k.a. a meteor, burning up as it enters Earth's atmosphere. Most likely, the clown who wrote that caption has an agenda to uphold the myth of man-made satellites.

Instead, the orbiting object in the middle of the above gif looks exactly like the countless sightings I remember from my childhood, while gazing at the Norwegian skies on summer nights - back in the 70's. I (and my brothers and cousins) would see such moving dots quite reliably - every 10/15 minutes or so! - following them with our eyes across the full width of the amazing Norwegian star-crowded firmament ( before falling asleep on my grandfather's lawn). In fact, we would also observe a great deal of meteors - briefly flashing by as seen in the above gif - so I am not saying the above clip is necessarily doctored. You'd have to be quite lucky to capture such a shot with a camera / telescope - but it is certainly not impossible to do so.

Unsurprisingly, Wickedpedia 'spices up' that article with lots of fear-mongering (NASA-inspired) rubbish - what with the potential catastrophic dangers of big asteroids colliding with Earth with the force of ten zillion Hiroshima bombs and so forth... :rolleyes:
"On March 23, 1989 the 300-meter (1,000-foot) diameter Apollo asteroid 4581 Asclepius (1989 FC) missed the Earth by 700,000 kilometers (430,000 mi) passing through the exact position where the Earth was only 6 hours before. If the asteroid had impacted it would have created the largest explosion in recorded history, twelve times more powerful than the Tsar Bomba, the most powerful nuclear bomb ever exploded by man."
So, yes Pinaki: I fully concur with you that the idea of the dots we see flying across the night skies being man-made satellites (most of them supposedly as big as washing machines - if not smaller) which reflect sunlight - is utterly ludicrous. Instead, it makes perfect sense that these would simply be one of our 8880 Near Earth asteroids flying by. Does it not?

To be sure, some of them occasionally fly by as close as this :

Asteroid 2005 YU55 to Approach Earth on November 8, 2011
Image
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news171.html

They are not planes. And they are not man-made satellites. Only Near Earth asteroids.
Dmitry
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by Dmitry »

whatsgoingon wrote: But we are still on the 168 degree azimuth and just a little further north for the quoted 30 degree elevation chi angle on their website.

In my revised drawing I get 1800 km arc with a theta of 16.2 deg. Reflection point can be 600 km. Target is N. Algeria on the same azimuth. Cheers.
This time, it is much more accurate. The trig is pretty much OK.

Sure, the reflection point can be at 600 km. You only have to indicate:

1) some material fixed (day and night) at this altitude somewhere above Clermont-Ferrand, France and well reflecting Ku band waves;
2) an emitter antenna in North Algeria.
Dmitry
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by Dmitry »

whatsgoingon wrote:An example of an array of terrestrial units near me (at 37.919952, -122.299454). Image from Google maps. Pointed down south to S. California.
At the same time, they are inclined to the equator. It is also South to you, sorry.
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by whatsgoingon »

a
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Dmitry
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by Dmitry »

whatsgoingon wrote:
reichstag fireman wrote:
whatsgoingon wrote: In my revised drawing I get 1800 km arc with a theta of 16.2 deg. Reflection point can be 600 km. Target is N. Algeria on the same azimuth. Cheers.
Lots of things to re-consider here..

Image
Details, tweaks, etc. Reflection or refraction.

Basic math, which was the assignment to this point as far as I can tell works out with a simple angle_i = angle_r and the elevation angle and 600 km height. I cannot know the finer details unless I work on the inside of one of these satellite firms. And I imagine that is not even going to net you much. These satellites are said to be all along the equator. And the engineers point their dishes to them and just accept this all as reality even though the space program is a giant lie.

So there we are at the most basic level of thinking.
whatsgoingon,

Let's go straight to the next level.

Given:
* Western Europe (say, France, 45th parallel);
* 2012 August, evening (20:00 GMT);
* Ku-band (11 GHz).

What data are missing here for calculating \mu?
Dmitry
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Re: Satellites : general discussion and musings

Unread post by Dmitry »

whatsgoingon wrote:But Dmitry tell us about the space program that launches these "Satellites" each year. Why are they photoshopping their rockets and such?
Monty Python wrote: Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3: Well, she turned me into a newt!
Sir Bedevere: A newt?
Peasant 3: [meekly after a long pause] ... I got better.
Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway!
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