The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

It has taken less than 10 years to pry open the can of worms enshrouding the pathetic 9/11 scam. The central role of the major newsmedia corporations to pull off this sordid "terror" simulation has now been comprehensively exposed. Before joining this forum, please get familiar with the research at: http://www.septemberclues.info
SmokingGunII
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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by SmokingGunII » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:48 pm

Equinox - I think you may have confused Warrior Hun for me! ;)

I will check out the backgrounds of some of those you have added to my list, although my feeling is that some of them are contrived names played by actors.

You have also duplicated some of the media connected names on the list of street witnesses. In fact, some, like Stewart Nurick, weren't even on the streets. He was serving coffee in a restaurant when he just happened to look out the window and see the plane. :rolleyes:

Smoke.

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by warriorhun » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:04 pm

Dear Equinox,

just to underline:

PTSD developing in average persons after a traumatic event is known since WWI, they called it shell-shock back then.
Americans must be familiar with that letterword regarding their Iraq veterans today.

Analoge example: Humwee convoy in Baghdad, first Humwee gets blown up by IED, soldiers in the second Humwee see them shrapnelled or burning alive. Second Humwee comes unde small armes fire, but they all survive. The survivors are very-very likely candidates to suffer PTSD, which will develop in time, and escalates if they will not receive treatement.

The IED blast=plane hits, first Humwee soldiers=jumpers, second Humwee soldiers=thousands of witnesses, surviving small-arms fire=running away from falling towers. I think convincing analogy.

Of course, CGI generated crowds do not suffer from PTSD as real thousands of witnesses would.
And it would be un-reasonable to send thousands of actors faking PTSD effects to real doctors.
I think the perps were stupid enough not to realise that a lack of psychological follow-up for their "thousands of witnesses" leaves a hole in the official story in time.

I challenge everyone: if you find reports/articles of "thousands of 9/11 NYC witnesses" receiving PTSD treatement, or suffering from lack of PTSD treatement-sure MSM would not hide these momentous, 9/11 connected news-so then, please point them out to me by all means (if they were written before I post this comment, you see ;) )!

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by regex » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:54 pm

Response to:
warriorhun wrote:I challenge everyone: if you find reports/articles of "thousands of 9/11 NYC witnesses" receiving PTSD treatement, or suffering from lack of PTSD treatement-sure MSM would not hide these momentous, 9/11 connected news-so then, please point them out to me by all means (if they were written before I post this comment, you see ;) )!
**********************************************************************************
Abstract
Manhattan residents living near the World Trade Center may have been particularly vulnerable to posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) after the September 11, 2001 (9/11) terrorist attacks. In 2003–2004, the authors administered the PTSD Checklist to 11,037 adults who lived south of Canal Street in New York City on 9/11. The prevalence of probable PTSD was 12.6% and associated with older age, female gender, Hispanic ethnicity, low education and income, and divorce. Injury, witnessing horror, and dust cloud exposure on 9/11 increased risk for chronic PTSD. Postdisaster risk factors included evacuation and rescue and recovery work. The results indicate that PTSD is a continued health problem in the local community. The relationship between socioeconomic status and PTSD suggests services must target marginalized populations. Followup is necessary on the course and long-term consequences of PTSD.
Source

You will have to register there to be able to see the full paper, but I can provide some quotes of it:
A group of researchers examined rates of PTSD and risk factors for PTSD among 11,037 lower Manhattan residents two to three years after 9/11. These residents were living within one mile of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
In addition, many people surveyed reported experiencing symptoms of PTSD.
  • Approximately 44% of people were found to be re-experiencing symptoms of PTSD.
  • About 20% of people surveyed were experiencing avoidance symptoms of PTSD.
  • Almost 39% of people reported having hyperarousal symptoms of PTSD.
The researchers found that approximately 13% of people had a current diagnosis of PTSD.
Source

**********************************************************************************
Additional:

Actually, there seem to be some papers about PTSD caused by 9/11, I wasn't able to find any report of mainstream media though.
I'm not too interested in this PTSD thing because you can't assume how many people witnessed the 9/11 act after all.

Eventhough the study I quoted says, that the PTSD rate in Lower Manhatten increased because of 9/11, I'm still convinced that there were not as many witnesses as media told us. When standing on ground level near the WTC complex you cannot see that much at all, you had to be far away, directly next to the WTC or at a higher building.
So my guess is, that most people, even in Manhatten that day saw the most on TV. TV might also cause PTSD, but just under special circumstances. If you watch a newsreport about someone somewhere in China that kills someone somehow I don't know doesn't affect me in any way, but seeing the biggest towers in my city collapsing, supposedly 'live', is something else.

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by warriorhun » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:29 pm

Dear regex,

Thank you for the article!

All right, maybe the perps were good enough to think about the PTSD side of the thousands of witnesses myth...

In the article excerpt, I found two key sentences.
The prevalence of probable PTSD was 12.6% and associated with older age, female gender, Hispanic ethnicity, low education and income, and divorce. Injury, witnessing horror, and dust cloud exposure on 9/11 increased risk for chronic PTSD.
Meaning thousands of old spic ladies working as illegal cleaners at NYC McDonalds, after a divorce from the hubby who beat them and the kids up every night after coming home full of tequila, are prone to have some serious flashbacks and depression. Watching WTC plane hits and WTC towers fall live on TV while cleaning in that McDonalds did not improve their conditions, either.

But I say that for the thousands of witnesses on the streets close enough to witness and film firsthand, the 9/11 event itself should have triggered full-blown PTSD, without watching any TV.

But okay, I understand: if we search carefully, we may find articles on 9/11 PTSD-related issues. Thank you for pointing out!

regex
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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by regex » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:43 pm

warriorhun wrote: All right, maybe the perps were good enough to think about the PTSD side of the thousands of witnesses myth...

But I say that for the thousands of witnesses on the streets close enough to witness and film firsthand, the 9/11 event itself should have triggered full-blown PTSD, without watching any TV.
I don't think that the perps needed to care about the PTSD rate since as I pointed out in my previous post, TV might also cause PTSD.

PTSD doesn't necessarily need you to see the event, I'm sure that it can also be caused by just hearing about the events.
Imagine seeing all the city in pure chaos, which it was I suppose. If you look up, there is just smoke and suddenly you hear a really loud sound (collapse of the building). Even if you didn't see the tower collapsing, the whole scenery is really stressing.

And finally when you come home you stare into TV and get a loud full of "AMERICA UNDER ATTACK" brainfuck.

So, even if you haven't seen the tower collapsing, dead people or whatever you can seriously suffer by all the other circumstances.

Furthermore, some people tend to repeatedly ask themselves questions like: "What if I were in the WTC"

All this combined is pure stress for someone that was in Lower Manhatten that day. That's why I think PTSD is not an indicator for the real witnesses.

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by warriorhun » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:30 pm

Dear regex,

About TV and PTSD? I am not psychologist, but consider this. There was a real shocking event recently in Hungary, Budapest: three girls died in West Balkan disco. Everybody heard about the event, the inner city was full chaos. Everybody saw on TV the poor little things put in bodybags, God rest their souls. All the young asked themselves: what if I was there? All parents asked themselves: what if my kids were there? And there were lots of kids in the disco who did not see what happened at all but heard the rumors and later saw everything in the news.

Rest assured, we are well by the thousands. But those who were firsthand witnesses around, well, I would not be in their skin.

So I think PTSD needs direct personal involvement in the triggering event, seeing jumpers and running from falling towers, being a thousand firsthand witness, not just watching TV.
I think news of thousands of witnesses receiving PTSD treatement for 9/11, or having messed up lives/suicide for lack of it, would be an indicator for real witness numbers.

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by warriorhun » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:02 pm

Dear regex,

this is part 2 of my previous post:

the article says:
Within six months, though, the severity of those PTSD symptoms were found to decline considerably for many people.
Good for them! All should be shipped in uniform to pacify Iraq like yesterday! Those soft army veterans are hanging themselves in large numbers having similar symptoms not declining within 6 months.
If you find that you are continuing to experience PTSD symptoms or other psychological difficulties (for example, depression) as a result of 9/11, it is very important for you to seek help. Even if you are not experiencing any difficulties during much of the year, anniversaries of traumatic events can bring about a resurgence of symptoms.
Good advice for the thousands of firsthand witnesses! I wonder how many of them seeked help, and how many of them committed suicide for lack of help.

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by warriorhun » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:17 pm

Dear all,

just to avoid confusion, let us agree what being one of a thousands of witnesses means:
Seeing with one's own eyes, on-site, on-time, one of the following four things:

1. seeing at least one plane hit one wtc tower, or
2. seeing at least one man jumping out and falling, or
3. seeing at least one jumper landing on the ground, or
4. seeing at least one wtc tower falling on top of you

Thousands of witnesses means thousands seeing with their own eyes either one or all of the above things.

Hearing loud bangs, watching smoke, listening to rumours, watching TV, or just being on the streets of NYC does not entitle anyone to be one of the thousands of witnesses (and would not result in PTSD symptoms either).

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by Equinox » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:05 am

SmokingGunII wrote:Equinox - I think you may have confused Warrior Hun for me! ;)

I will check out the backgrounds of some of those you have added to my list, although my feeling is that some of them are contrived names played by actors.

You have also duplicated some of the media connected names on the list of street witnesses. In fact, some, like Stewart Nurick, weren't even on the streets. He was serving coffee in a restaurant when he just happened to look out the window and see the plane. :rolleyes:

Smoke.


Ahh yes I did mistake you for warrior Hun

Anyways smoke, This list is just in the drapht stage I am willing to work on it with you to make sure we have at least somewhat of a list of who claims has seen an flying object on 9/11.

I will chop n change this list accordingly.

In regards, to the other 9/11 actors that we have already established... I will place them up on separate list.
I look fowared to any input in future and any updates that shall be added...
That's exactly the type of list I wanted to create for the WTC, Simon!
I agree smoke, let’s do it then. Just bare with me, I do have the time to work this out and have it done shortly… On of the ways to do it is to obviously keep on placing the Draught list up and chopping and changing as we go along.
Last edited by Equinox on Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by simonshack » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:28 pm

Since we are at it...here are the


FLIGHT 77 WITNESSES (PENTAGON)
(compiled by Lord Tsukasa – aka SimonJCP)



MEDIA PEOPLE*********************************

Mike Walter (Reporter for USA Today)

Joel Sucherman (Multimedia editor of USA Today)

Fred Gaskins (National Editor of the USA Today)

Richard Benedetto (Reporter for USA Today)

Vin Narayanan (Reporter for USA Today)

Bob Dubill (Executive Editor of USA Today)

Steve Anderson (Director of Communications for USA Today)

Bobby Eberle (CEO of Endeavor Media Group, LLC, of GOPUSA)

Dave Winslow (Radio reporter for the Associated Press)

Mitch Mitchell (CBS' Military Consultant)

Greta van Susteren (CNN/FOX Legal Analyst)

Christopher Munsey (Reporter for the Navy Times)

Eugenio Hernandez (Video journalist for the Associated Press)

Barbara" (Wife of a friend of CNN correspondent David Endsor)

Mary Ann Owens (Newsroom Assistant at Gannett News Service)

John O'Keefe (Managing editor of "Influence" magazine)


MILITARY PEOPLE************************************************

Stuart Artman (Army Reserve pilot)

Lincoln Liebner (Army Captain)

Bruce Elliott ('Former' Army Commander)

Dewey Snavely (Army Engineer Platoon Leader)

Frank Probst ('Former' Army Officer, DOD Contractor)

James S Robbins (National Security Analyst, National Review contributor)

Maurice L. Bease (Seargent for the US Military)

Albert Hemphill (Staff member of the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization)

Kim Dent (Administrative Assistant to the Ballistic Missile Defense
Organization)

Dennis Clem (Deputy Director of Directorate for Information Systems
and Services for the Defense Intelligence Agency)

Zinovy Pak (Director of the Russian Munitions Agency)

Spec. Mike Ryan (Works for the military out of Fort Myers)

Philip Sheuerman (Associate General Counsel for the U.S. Air Force)

Clyde A. Vaughn (Deputy Director of Military Support to Civil Authorities)

Phillip Thompson ('Ex'-Military)

G. T. Stanley (Military captain, Part of the Defense Protective Service)

Noel Sepulveda (High-ranking military officer)

Shari Taylor (Finance Manager for the Defense Intelligence Agency)

Levi Stephens (Courier for the Armed Forces Information Service)

Mike Dobbs (Marine- Navy) Corps Policy Planner Commander and senior
fellow with the Lexington Institute

Lesley Kelly ('Former' US Navy Commander)

Michael James (Navy information technician)

James Ryan (Former US Navy)

Donald R. Bouchoux (Former US Navy commander, Part of the US Naval Institute)

Darb Ryan (Chief of Naval Personnel)

Oscar Martinez (US Marine)

Dennis Smith ('Former' US Marine)

Chris Stuart (US Marine)

Terry Morin ('Former' aviator for the US Marines)

Alan Wallace ('Ex'-Military)

Stephen McGraw ('Former' DOJ, Opus Dei priest)

Qawiy Sabre (Pentagon employee)

"K.M." (Pentagon employee)


GOVERNMENT PEOPLE*******************************************

Gary Bauer (High-ranking PNAC member, former Presidential Candidate)

Patty Murray (US Senator)

Fred Hey (Congressional Staff attorney)

Elaine Mc Cusker (Associate Director of the Office of Federal
Relations, Co-Chair of the Coalition for National Security Research)

Penny Elgas (Member of the board of the FDIC Advisory Committee on
Banking Policy, alongside Jean Baker, George H.W Bush's chief of
staff)

Donald Timmerman (Relative of Neo Con Kenneth Timmerman)

Jeffrey Taylor (DC Lobbyist)

Rick Renzi (Corrupt congressman)

Ken Ford (State Department employee)

'M.J.' (US Treasury official)

Steven Gerard (Employee of the Department of Justice)

Michael Tinyk (Lawyer for the US Trademark Office)

Ian Wyatt (Federal Employee)

Mike Gerson (Bush speechwriter)



NONE OF THE ABOVE categories******************************

Rodney Washington (Systems engineer for a Pentagon contractor)

Elizabeth Smiley (Intelligence Operations Specialist for the FAA)

Dan Creed (Oracle Corporation employee)

Jose Velasquez (Runs a gas station open only to DOD personnel)

Lloyd England (Taxi driver – and husband of an FBI agent)

***************************************************************************************************************************************************

I believe this list tells us more than a million words. All credit to SimonJCP (btw, whatever happened to him? Give us a shout, Simon!) :)

IMPORTANT NOTE: To fully appreciate the significance of these lists of "eyewitnesses" (both at the WTC and the Pentagon), it is essential for the casual reader of this research to understand that a lot of efforts have gone into actually finding out the precise identities of most of the characters listed. It's not like the media provided this information automatically for all of these individuals - on a silver plate. For instance - and anecdotally - let me tell you how the infamous Theresa Renaud's identity was patiently revealed. Back in 2007, I think, the great and brilliant 9/11 researcher (and now cluesforum member) Still Diggin was musing about who this CBS "witness" was, a caller on the CBS Early Morning Show hosted by anchorman Bryant Gumble. The spelling of her name wasn't obvious at the time, since CBS never showed it on TV. So Still Diggin, assuming it was "Renault" (like the French car maker) was puzzled as to who she actually might be - being unable to find a plausible "Theresa Renault". As it was found out (almost contemporarily by Joe Craine and myself) that her surname was actually spelled "Renaud", it was instant BINGO! She was none other than the wife of Bryant Gumble's own boss, Jack Renaud - producer of the CBS morning show! That's team-work for you, folks ! ;)
911 LOGIC BLOGSPOT - by Still Diggin: http://911logic.blogspot.com/2006/12/91 ... ds_05.html

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by D.Duck » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:50 pm

Simon,

I just want to add Sergent Lagasse and all C.I.T. phony Pentagon witnesses in their hit piece video talking about a different flight path. When I watched that BS thing a couple of years ago the word "plane" is mentioned about 500 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8L6gIzb ... CC44EF8C23

Its great to do a 2 hour video about flight path, where there is no plane, just fucking brilliant.

Smoke was one of the guys doing a good job calling them out and we have not heard from them since 2008.



D.Duck


EDIT: Yea, where is LT?

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by SmokingGunII » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:40 pm

That's exactly the type of list I wanted to create for the WTC, Simon! :)

I've already bemoaned LT's absence from this site, as well as others. :(

DD - I think they reside at P4T these days!

Equinox - I don't think some of those eyewitnesses in the street actually exist and in the case of Jennings, he was, like WTC 7, a red herring.

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by Gary-Welz » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:37 pm

Nowadays, SimonJCP is posting at the "beyond politics and 911" forum.

His last post:

SimonJCP
Post subject: Re: Leaked cable reveals more 9/11 plotters
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:49 am

http://www.beyondpoliticsand911.com/vie ... f=12&t=747

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:36 pm

I think Tufa made an excellent point a long time ago:

A real witness who isn't a plant will typically have only a small amount of information compared to that which can overwhelm them from entirely simulated sources. Media has changed the very landscape of human memory.

As such, it has also changed the landscape of history.

The crucial question of how thousands can be duped by the very hype they are experiencing is pretty central to the 9/11 operation and all the psy-ops since. I just wanted to bring it up again in case new users had any ideas to add about this matter.

I doubt it, but you never know.

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Re: The "There were thousands of witnesses" myth

Unread post by fbenario » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:04 am

hoi.polloi wrote:The crucial question of how thousands can be duped by the very hype they are experiencing is pretty central to the 9/11 operation and all the psy-ops since. I just wanted to bring it up again in case new users had any ideas to add about this matter.
I've been thinking about this recently, and have concluded that, because this is the first 'mega-event' that the world ever 'saw' unfold 'as it happened', every single person on Earth with a TV actually and truly believes, "I saw it with my own eyes".

I don't believe anything we prove as fake will EVER seep into the consciousness of more than a very few people. All of our work will help save the world at some point after we are long gone. While this sounds a little negative and depressing, I don't actually think that's the case.

We are writing the historical record in real-time, as it happens, and we will be remembered for our backbone, determination, and intellectual honesty. You, Hoi, wrote the single most important research paper in human history, and if that, alone of all of this forum, somehow survives, future mankind will remember you with gratitude.

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