Does Rocketry Work beyond Earth's atmosphere?

If NASA faked the moon landings, does the agency have any credibility at all? Was the Space Shuttle program also a hoax? Is the International Space Station another one? Do not dismiss these hypotheses offhand. Check out our wider NASA research and make up your own mind about it all.
Selene
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by Selene »

Pilgrim wrote:Hi Selene, I fail to see what difference the temperature of "space" makes to the fact that Rockets cannot produce a thrust in a vacuum. A vacuum by its own definition has no matter to hold any temperature so is neither hot or cold and the fact the Rocket gases are hot and can only lose heat by radiation in a vacuum which takes time seems irrelevant to the immediate fact of whether they are hot gases or cold gases in terms of thrust produced by expelled mass. It should make no difference according to their logic. Of course I agree with the OP - only a reaction with another mass can produce an opposite reaction and Rocket fumes have nothing to react against in vacuum due to no pressure against anything as the vacuum offers zero resistance and will suck up all you have to offer with zero resistance so no "thrust" is possible.
Hi Pilgrim,

it's not so much a "difference", it's more that there are more parameters affecting the behaviour of rockets in a near vacuum.

If not only the Pressure is ~0, but also the Temperature ~0 (or 2.7 K as Wiki says), then material behaviour is completely different to whatever circumstance we know of.

I agree with lux that we should have a thorough research into the topic, but it will be hard to find "lab tests" where AND Pressure AND Temperature are almost 0. And not to forget the radiation which is impossible to test as we do not even know which kinds of radiation are there. And the lack of gravity, also impossible to test. We might ask NASA to show us the test in their vomit comet, with vacuum conditions, as 24 cosmoclowns allegedly traveled to the Moon, that shouldn't be such a problem, right?

The chemical changes to the materials (either gaseous as the rocket fuel or solid as the metal can) couldn't be circumvented.

The near vacuum, so incredibly low Pressure, makes there is no friction between the rocket and space. How would you describe the temperature profile from inside to outside?

Inside - a nice comfortable 20 degrees C?
Outside - heated due to radiation? - how would this heat be transferred?
Space - near zero temperatures

The outside of the spacecraft would have such enormous temperature fluctuations even when and if it can be heated by solar radiation alone, that only that would make the rocket/craft behave very strangely.

In short, to answer your question; the pressure is indeed a crucial point, but even so crucial is the temperature which until recently was not included in the discussion.
simonshack
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by simonshack »

lux wrote:
My guess is no one on this thread knows or cares about the answer.

(...)

Personally, I don't really care if rockets work in space or not.

(...)

I just care about doing valid research.
Care to clarify? D'you care - or caren't you ? That is The Question.

As for your 'armchair physicists' comment, I'm sure you meant no offense - or else you would have typed "wheelchair physicists". :P
lux
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by lux »

I don't understand. Do you see a contradiction in those 3 sentences of mine?

I just couldn't resist a little ranting when I saw that comment about a shield attached to a rocket but I'm happy to sit this thread out if I'm being a party pooper.
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by simonshack »

lux wrote:I don't understand. Do you see a contradiction in those 3 sentences of mine?

I just couldn't resist a little ranting when I saw that comment about a shield attached to a rocket but I'm happy to sit this thread out if I'm being a party pooper.
Yes, Lux - your 3 sentences strike me as a tad contradictory, but maybe it's just me.

Besides, we are not exactly having a jolly party here - so there is no party to poop. A jolly "party" is a more apt description of what NASA has had ever since its inception - defrauding ALL of us honest citizens, armchair scientists included. Most of us here are just trying our damndest best to restore some sanity in this long-degenerated, foolish and mind-numbing "party" ruthlessly imposed on us all by NASA & Co for well over half a century now. These shamelessly arrogant party-throwers are universally hailed as the 'most eminent scientific brains' of this planet. Therefore, I don't think that ANY sarcasm or snide remarks against our members are appropriate in the context of our valiant, collective efforts on this forum.
lux
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by lux »

To clarify, the armchaim remark was directed at Boetheus who has insulted all of us on another forum and also to the guy who made the rocket shield remark who isn't a member here. I will apologize to Boethius just as soon as he apologizes to the forum for the prior insults he wrote about us on LRF.

If you, Simon, or anyone else felt insulted by my armchair remark, I apologize. It wasn't meant for you.

I will now let you all carry on with this thread without my input. :)
Selene
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by Selene »

lux wrote:I will now let you all carry on with this thread without my input. :)
That would be a pity, lux. :)

You said you have doubts with space travel because of the radiation, length, etc. And as far as I understood, you don't agree with Boethius vision on thrust & (near) vacuum?

What about combining your expressed doubts and the points of Boethius and let's throw temperature in the equation as well?

Would there be any pre-NASA source that can help us tackling this problem? In the 50's they must have published about this most interesting question, right? Could we leave this Earth with a craft/rocket at all?

Later I will look for pre-NASA publications myself, will be somewhere coming week.
lux
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by lux »

Selene wrote:
lux wrote:I will now let you all carry on with this thread without my input. :)
That would be a pity, lux. :)

You said you have doubts with space travel because of the radiation, length, etc.
Doubts about serious space travel (to another planet, etc) using one of NASA's aluminum rockets, yes, many doubts. Rockets may have some minor uses in space but not as a main propulsion method. Apart from what I've already opined about rockets, NASA can't even decide if one can see stars in space so how would they even navigate a rocket across millions of miles ... if they managed to get one out there? You can't triangulate from Earth when Earth is just a dot in the far distance.
And as far as I understood, you don't agree with Boethius vision on thrust & (near) vacuum?
Correct but this has all been discussed before and I don't wish to re-hash it. I'm fine with letting others discuss it. Really -- it's not a big deal to me. I'm not leaving the forum or anything. I just don't wish to get into a debate on this topic.
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by Pilgrim »

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" I think that has only been shown to be more or less true when actual masses react against each other. If i am on a skateboard and throw a medicine ball away from myself then i am both pushing myself backwards against the medicine ball and propelling the ball forward against my own mass. As I have a greater mass than the ball then the ball will go more forward than i will backward.
This analogy has been shown to be falsely used to justify Rocket thrust in a vacuum as the Rocket plume exhaust equates to my muscles actually pushing against the medicine ball and not the actual medicine ball itself being ejected by me as mass creating opposite force or thrust as in the case of Rocket engines.
I can punch the air with a force but i will not be propelled backwards with the same force as the air offers little resistance to my hand, if i did the same in water i would feel more resistance and if I punch a solid object like a wall then i would be propelled backwards even more.
That it's the mass of the medium (or opposing pressure created by mass) in which a force is applied against to get any opposite reaction such as air, water or solid masses is self evident from experience and reality.
A Fireman's hose will produce a thrust against the air pressure but nothing like as much force as if the same power was used for liquid or gases used in closed systems such as pneumatic applications and "push" against solid objects rather than air pressure.
If i had a pump that sucks up water from the end of the Fireman's nozzle at the same rate it was being expelled then as there is zero resistance to the ejected mass, then there can be no opposite reaction and space vacuum offers the ultimate pump that "sucks" up all you have to offer as the ejecting mass can just carry on with no resistance whatsoever to produce a force against and there is no mass to react against.
Can anyone offer another example of "equal and opposite reaction" without a mass or pressure against another mass? as Rockets in a vacuum will be unique otherwise.
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

We're back to the beginning again, where it's impossible to test for because a semi-empty vacuum chamber (excepting the test subject) will quickly become filled with molecules ejected.

You'd have to have a very large vacuum chamber and a very small, perfectly analogous, functional model rocket to even come close to a study about perfect vacuum. And even then, could you drop this perfect vacuum from 20 kilometers up to simulate zero gravity?

We could make close tests but not perfect tests. Therefore, the fantastic invention and maintenance of the "outer space rocket" concept is forever locked behind the offices of those who claim to have achieved it. It's a lie protected by scientific impossibility.

If I were the only the person to have an underground base 50 kilometers below the crust, I could make all the claims I want about what magical properties this place has. Then, I would just need to fudge some math so that its phantasy physics perfectly arcs with known mass-testable physics in our biosphere and hey presto! — a believable but purely fantastical story.

What we've at least come up with is the nigh undeniable fact that "rocket science" is a subject that most people think only a few elite are allowed to talk about because they have always been the ones to claim authority to do so while mocking others for asking for better explanation. Thank goodness we armchair physicists can finally have a small platform to make this fact known.

---

If we could get close to these rockets that are so high in security, would we find convincing evidence that they can in fact push against enough mass — not in a hose-like manner, but the perfectly timed explosive manner alleged — rather than merely eject mass to achieve the speeds claimed?

I think, as the point has been made before, it's unnecessary to remind readers that atmosphere and pressure have everything to do with this possibility, since the resistance mass encounters is what makes that mass worthy of any pushing force.

The fact that something appears to move in an equal and opposite reaction is only related to the pushing force on each object, it does not always indicate what is pushing on what.
bounce.GIF
bounce.GIF (17.17 KiB) Viewed 9553 times
In my above diagram, the yellow arrows indicate forces that aid the rocket in combating gravity. As you can see, its allies grow scarce the thinner the atmosphere it attempts to "climb" by spontaneously generating a ladder. One is reminded of Baron Munchausen pulling himself up by his own bootstraps to explain how a rocket must exert an exponentially increasingly powerful force, after a certain amateur height is achieved, and this power must steadily increase (i.e.; accelerate) all the way to 100 kilometers up and well beyond where balloons are known and observed to quit because of near total loss of atmosphere.

What goes up must come down.

Ever wonder why the convention of science fiction shows is to demonstrate magical means of leaving the planet — ion drive, magic crystals, anti-gravitational forces, artificially induced weightlessness, hover-craft, special undiscovered "radiation", etc.? Oooo, watch the pretty lights ...
Boethius
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by Boethius »

It's my feeling that NASA is lying to me with the "massflow" equation for rocket motion because I can prove to myself experimentally that if it is easier for a force to push down than it is to push up the force will always push down and never push up. And as such the expanding gas in a rocket always pushes down into the atmosphere.

So how does a rocket lift off the ground and fly? My explanation follows. Note that under my claims a rocket cannot travel in space.

Taking a look at the Saturn V rocket with 5 F1 engines used by Apollo 11 we can start to see that "Rocket Science" is, at the core, nothing more than basic physics.

1. According to Wikipedia a mix of Liquid Oxygen oxidizer and RP-1 Kerosene based fuel was used.

2. Taking into account the flow per minute of oxidizer, fuel and their expansion ratios 140,000,000 liters per engine were produced

3. All 5 engines combined produced 700,000,000 liters per minute or 700,000 cubic meters / 25,000,000 cubic feet of gas per minute, almost the volume of the Empire State Building

4. This gas upon expanding would have immediately gone to the area between the nozzle and the launch pad. This is because all forces always move towards the area of least resistance. The rocket offers resistance of 2,800,000 kg/9.8 = 285,000 N

5. In one second (1 sec) the combined Saturn V engines produce 11,666 liters cubic meters of gas. Treating the 5 engines as one, taking the diameter of the Saturn V rocket as 10m, the formula for the cylinder of gas which would be generated underneath the rocket gives us a height of 150m and the gas moving at 150 m/s is equal 540 km/hr. If there was no launchpad the gas would form a perfect cylinder in the first second.

6. If the gas is moving 150 m/s at time=1 second the acceleration is 300 m/s^2

7. Use Newton's 2nd Law as intended: F=MA, convert the weight of the gas expanded to mass
Find the force of the expanding gas to be approx 400,000 N

8. Some of the gas slammed into the launch pad bounces back towards the rocket with 400,000 N force because the mass of the launchpad is infinite and the collision is elastic even through some of the gas billows out into the air forming very nice, showy clouds. Note that most of the molecules bounce back towards the ship because otherwise the volume of expanding gas would completely surround and occlude the ship.

9. The gas bouncing towards the ship after hitting the launch pad meets the next wave of gas coming out of the nozzle and we have a collision of two objects of the same size (gas molecules) traveling the same speed (540 km/h) in which case they exchange velocities; the one coming from this ship goes back towards it and the one from the launchpad returns that way. Eventually, through these collisions, the ship is forced upwards and we have liftoff.

10. What happens once the ship is moving vertically? I haven't done all the research but here's my guess. For a rocket away from the launchpad, the gas expanding out of the nozzle creates a Hydraulic Jump, which is that ring around water being poured into a sink when water moves along the surface until a wave begins to slow down causing the waves behind it to catch it and bunch it up creating a wall of water. The same thing happens with the expanding gas, the leading edge of which slows down due to air resistance and the fact that force decreases as the square of the distance traveled forming a dense cloud of molecules, which the next wave of expanding gas collides with and so forth, once again pushing up on the rocket. This effect should last until the rocket runs out of fuel or the air becomes thin enough so that the hydraulic jump point is far enough away from the ship to be negligible. There are probably equations for this which I may look for at some point.
Boethius
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by Boethius »

I just realized why Newton's 3rd Law doesn't apply to NASA rocket engines.

The rocket is not pushing the gas into the atmosphere so there is no reason for the gas to be pushing back on the rocket.

So how does the gas come out of the rocket? By thermal expansion, not by the rocket pushing on the gas.

The thermally expanding gas pushes on the air beneath the rocket and the air pushes back causing it to disperse allowing the gas to hit the launch pad which pushes back without deforming throwing the gas back towards the rocket.

All NASA rocket engines do is supply liquid to a nozzle where a combustion occurs. The rocket is not pumping, pushing or forcing the expanding gases away from the rocket so the rocket has no claim to the "equal and opposite" force from the expanding gases.

Think of a flamethrower and how the blast doesn't push back the operator.
Boethius
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by Boethius »

Although a rocket carries fuel in its tanks the expansion of said fuel takes place outside of the rocket, or more specifically underneath the rocket. Once the engine places the fuel mixture into the combustion chamber, which is open to the outside, the rocket loses all connection to the fuel, which will expand downwards and away from the rocket when ignited.

This is also why a rocket cannot work in the vacuum of space. Because there the fuel underneath the rocket would shoot out into space without any thrust even without Joule Expansion.

It seems so simple to me now after spending so much time researching how rockets work. The whole thing is loaded with hoax and psy-op, the thought that "rocket science" is something sophisticated and intellectually challenging seems silly. A rocket is nothing more than a tin can sitting on top of an explosion.

Of course the people who claim they are interested in rockets are really interested in space exploration and are willing to overlook various irregularities and believe certain lies to keep their dreams alive. In reality there is no program currently presented to the public by any country that has any hope of assisting man in traveling through space.
Selene
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by Selene »

Boethius wrote:Although a rocket carries fuel in its tanks the expansion of said fuel takes place outside of the rocket, or more specifically underneath the rocket. Once the engine places the fuel mixture into the combustion chamber, which is open to the outside, the rocket loses all connection to the fuel, which will expand downwards and away from the rocket when ignited.

This is also why a rocket cannot work in the vacuum of space. Because there the fuel underneath the rocket would shoot out into space without any thrust even without Joule Expansion.

It seems so simple to me now after spending so much time researching how rockets work. The whole thing is loaded with hoax and psy-op, the thought that "rocket science" is something sophisticated and intellectually challenging seems silly. A rocket is nothing more than a tin can sitting on top of an explosion.

Of course the people who claim they are interested in rockets are really interested in space exploration and are willing to overlook various irregularities and believe certain lies to keep their dreams alive. In reality there is no program currently presented to the public by any country that has any hope of assisting man in traveling through space.
You're right, Boethius. Either way, by lack of pressure or temperature (or both), everything dissipates. It just vanishes. In the vast nothingness of Space.

There's no physics that would allow it to work. It just means we are "stuck" to this planet and aliens couldn't visit us.

It's just the facade of beautiful pictures, in which I believed for so many years which is so hard to break. Even at room temperature.

Isn't it better to talk about the relative merits of washing machines than the relative strength of rockets? Isn't this the kind of competition you want?
Richard Nixon (to Chrutschev) (1959)
Boethius
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by Boethius »

Selene wrote: You're right, Boethius. Either way, by lack of pressure or temperature (or both), everything dissipates. It just vanishes. In the vast nothingness of Space.

There's no physics that would allow it to work. It just means we are "stuck" to this planet and aliens couldn't visit us.

It's just the facade of beautiful pictures, in which I believed for so many years which is so hard to break. Even at room temperature.

Isn't it better to talk about the relative merits of washing machines than the relative strength of rockets? Isn't this the kind of competition you want?
Richard Nixon (to Chrutschev) (1959)
Selene, you bring up an important concept that is not easy to grasp after a lifetime of indoctrination and programming: why rockets cannot work in outer space. When I started this thread a few years back I was not certain about this. I was concerned that I might have made a mistake. I was nervous that there was something I was missing. It is only through the course of participating in this thread that I was able to finally prove to myself that rockets do not work in space.

Imagine a combustion chamber inside a rocket filled with high pressure gas. Now you open a nozzle in that chamber to release the gas. The gas will evacuate the chamber without pressing against the ship. Why?

Because the first molecule closest to the nozzle is pushed out by the pressure of the gas behind it. The molecule closest to the nozzle obviously doesn't push back against all that high pressure gas when it can escape outside, which it does, allowing the molecule behind it to take its place and be the new closest one. At the same time all of the other molecules will move closer to the opening. The same way that when you turn a bottle of water upside down and open the cap, all the water starts to pour out and none of the water remaining presses against the top, it all moves towards the opening, where he pressure is lowest. In this same way you cannot have the gas of a rocket pressing against the top of the combustion chamber while the gas is emptying out of he bottom. It sounds silly but this is what we have been lead to believe by our so called "top scientists." This is the basis of the "Newton's Third Law" argument, assuming the gas leaving the rocket presses against the rocket while it leaves, which is impossible.

Since it has been drilled into our heads our entire lives that Rocket Science is complex and difficult to understand we never see in fact how simple it really is. It is in fact simplest of all in a vacuum. The gas just leaves the rocket without pushing on it at all.
hoi.polloi
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Re: Does Rocketry Work in the Vacuum?

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

What about the idea that a chemical reaction can cause the gas to ignite without fire? (To avoid the complex description of what exactly fire is, I preempt your answer and hasten to add I recognize that it is a chemical reaction as well.)

To play devil's advocate, and because the official story now sounds so incredibly weak — laughable — wouldn't a pure chemical reaction, that isn't fire, still cause the requisite ignition and therefore expansion against the body of the ship? The gas wouldn't escape instantaneously, as you have sometimes left open as a possibility in your descriptions. Therefore, a nozzle is still useful in space, regardless of whether the gas is ejected or not. You can turn it on higher or lower. Ergo, although it may not be useful for pushing on a vehicle, it could still be used to combine chemicals in outer space, "under" the rocket, creating ignition and therefore enough blasts to move the rocket through space. Yes?

B)

Wow, it's sounding pretty ridiculous to have space travel by any conventional means they claim to use.
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