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jumpy64
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by jumpy64 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:51 am

Pov603, why don't you just link to the article you want us to read, as I did, please? I think what you just did uselessly occupies space here, and makes this topic more difficult to read.

I myself can't read the whole quote now, but from what I gather at a quick glance the difference with my quote is that in the latter "divide and conquer" is mentioned by an influential person of the ethnic group in question, while here it doesn't seem to be the case. But I may be mistaken, because as I said I haven't read it all yet.

jumpy64
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by jumpy64 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:38 am

Here's a very telling interview to former Israeli minister of Education, both in written and video format:

http://www.elitetrader.com/et/index.php ... se.293491/

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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by pov603 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:43 am

If the article '...uselessly occupies space...' I have no objection to the 'mods' removing its content.
I fail to see how or why you skirt around this issue without properly naming [or shaming as you seem to be intent on doing] the 'minority' and their 'intentions' that you are focussing on.
You draw our attention to 'divide and conquer' like it is specifically a Hebrew-Israeli-Jewish [or H-I-J...] trait when in fact it is a common modus operandi for TPTB irrespective of creed.
You should try to be more specific in what it is you are trying to convey to others, then allow them to research matters further as they deem appropriate rather than hinting at things and then [seemingly] taking exception to others contending your assertions.
Also remember if it worries you that a disproportionate 'minority' exerts influence over the vast majority then consider the disproportionate influence the 'white-christian-western' portion of the world exerts over the rest.

jumpy64
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by jumpy64 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:47 pm

pov603 wrote:I fail to see how or why you skirt around this issue without properly naming [or shaming as you seem to be intent on doing] the 'minority' and their 'intentions' that you are focussing on.
I've already stated my motivations more than once in my previous posts. They're still there for you to read again, if you wish.
You draw our attention to 'divide and conquer' like it is specifically a Hebrew-Israeli-Jewish [or H-I-J...] trait when in fact it is a common modus operandi for TPTB irrespective of creed.
You're putting in my mouth words I've never said. "Divide and conquer" is a widely used military tactics. In fact, I think it comes originally from the ancient Romans' "divide et impera". I've never said it's something specific of a certain ethnic group. But in the case I linked to, http://cis.org/articles/2001/back1301.html, it's used in very specific and non war-related context in a way that seems highly questionable to me. But everybody can read and decide for themselves, of course.
You should try to be more specific in what it is you are trying to convey to others, then allow them to research matters further as they deem appropriate rather than hinting at things and then [seemingly] taking exception to others contending your assertions.
I thank you for your advice, but I hope you will forgive me if, after considering it, I've decided to keep writing my posts as I deem appropriate, given the circumstances. And by the way, where do you see me limiting others to "research matters as they deem appropriate"? Of course anybody can research what and how they want, just as I can give the hints I consider more effective.

And as for "taking exception to others", I just said to you (not "others") if you could please link to long documents instead of copying and pasting them. And now that I read it, I can also say that, in my opinion, the article was at best only marginally relevant. It basically says what you said more effectively in just a few words here: other nations and ethnic groups have used divide and conquer tactics. True, but so what? I think such tactics are to be denounced whenever discovered. One instance at a time though, otherwise only confusion results.
Also remember if it worries you that a disproportionate 'minority' exerts influence over the vast majority then consider the disproportionate influence the 'white-christian-western' portion of the world exerts over the rest.
Actually, what I'm suggesting as a possibility here is that this "disproportionate minority", as you call it, exerts covert and undue influence over the "white-christian-western portion of the world" that you see as controlling the rest ofthe world, so for me it would still be a case of the former minority exerting a "disproportionate influence over the rest" by controlling in particular just the "white-christian-western portion" in question. I know this may sound a bit complicated, but I don't know how to express myself better here, so please forgive me and try to understand me anyway, if you will.

And in any case, you can always open a new topic in this forum to talk about this "disproportionate influence" that you see. And maybe even about the use of "divide and conquer" tactics in Ireland in 1692, if you think it's something relevant to the current situation in 2015. It's just a suggestion.

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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:53 pm

jumpy64,

The thread you've created here is a really mixed bag and I'm not really sure what to do with it.

What is obviating about our threads that directly question the so-called "Jewish Holocaust", that openly point out the number of self-proclaimed Jews in the media and that constantly make plain our suspicion of names associated with the Jewish religions (Talmudic, Jewish atheism, etc.) and their naming conventions?

I understand the "artistry" of acting conspiratorial and whispery about something you identify as a censored topic, but on our forum I think what we could really use is something that shows faith in the mods, and more specific contentions.

Please, help us rename your thread to something less paranoid. How about "Reflections on Jewish influence" or something? Or, if you are trying to tell us "the ethnic group" you won't mention is because you don't know what it is, say that. And help us narrow it down instead of taking on the "alternative mainstream" position of setting up the "all Jews are so bad we can't talk about it" straw man.

If the name of the group is not something you have yet identified because it's hiding within the Jewish population, largely using the Jewish position, which in turn protects the conspiracy for a mutually-beneficial arrangement, that makes more sense to me. But then, it goes against your point that the conspiracy is "open".

I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Simon and I have been trying hard to pin this topic down for a while now, ourselves. But if it starts with the same old "White Power" kind of arguments, you cannot let it end there and say it's good research. You'll want to ask harder questions of your own assertions. For example, as "omaxsteve" already pointed out, even though he has had a Jewish upbringing, we might note that he has challenged your weakest points about the scope of the conspiracy. That makes your opening post look as though you want to ineffectually identify the true perpetrators of the hoaxes.

Here are questions we contributors should really ask ourselves about the existing discoveries of those investigating the Jewish conspiracy.

What has the investigation uncovered besides the fact that conspirators in the media claim to be Jewish? How can we reconcile this with how little we explore, as researchers, what that claim means? What does it mean to "be" Jewish? What is the history of Judaic armies forcing conversion on other peoples? What ethnicities combined (or were eliminated) in order to form the modern Jewish thrust? Which peoples have Jews raped/pillaged/committed genocide on? As "jumpy64" on our forum, you have written a good precursor to this research and given us okay "hints" to start learning what has survived about time periods thousands of years ago. However, on CluesForum, it's not enough; we need new original research or newly compiled research and we need to ask better, more intelligent, more optimistic and more effective questions than those that have come before.

What is the meaning of so many groups generally propping up the Jewish whipping boy? What is humanity's tendency, in terms of all its ethnic groups, to hear the Jewish lie/skewed tale of Jews being "an oppressed underdog minority just fighting back to survive" and using that as a mask — in all its variety and forms — to cover up their own atrocities, failures and lies? In other words, why is the "Jewish conspiracy" so eager to be used as a foil whenever we try to find a foil?

Is it because it cannot hide as well as other groups, or is it because a Jewish sect has volunteered to be the Public Relations "intelligence wing" front of the psychopaths?

I believe we could try to understand the location of the Zionist, Jewish, Talmudic, Masonic, Gnostic, Catholic, Christian, Islamic, Sufi, Shriner, Pagan, Ba'Hai, Scientologist, Mormon, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic and other "fraternal order" entry points to the core sect of psychopaths. And if we did, I believe we would find a universal problem with humanity applying once again to a particular historic time period (in which we now live) where a particularly large portion of the Jewish minority ethnicity happen to be the latest iteration of a fucking long lasting problem with how we fail to design ourselves better as a species.

Until you can definitively prove this problem has solely been with the existence of Jews for a reasonable portion of all recorded time periods, we must process the fact that we don't know how to design ourselves better as a species but that trying to is a fundamental assumption (and bias) of this research pseudo-community.

We cannot allow any form of prejudice to take over our clear rationale and focus on evidence, since that is historically and universally the first step to getting a community rammed into another community with an opposite viewpoint by whatever this conspiracy is — whether it's Jews or some other force happily forcing us into the feud or not. Simon and I will not allow our forum, as well as we can prevent it anyway, to meet the fate of so many other forums that devolve into a personal feud between intellectuals from every ethnicity around the world. And anyway, it is not where our research has taken us. We haven't found that the majority of hoaxers are Jewish. We have evidence to support a Jewish tribal mentality, but that's something just about everyone is already aware of.

Assuming Jews do not want to fix their own culture just because the culture effectively makes many of its members into haters is naive.

The problem with our own cultures, we can see plainly enough here.

How many people have joined not CluesForum but simply the efforts of CluesForum to find the detailed problems? Amongst millions of people? How many people have shown a tendency to point the finger at a culprit other than one handed to us by a race that is eager to make enemies? This is a problem that we all have, all over the world, apparently. And in our search for those cultures that have better "technology" at self-improvement, why would you look to the Jewish belief system? It's failed for centuries, just as all world views, including our own, have failed to figure out the existential human dilemma.

Has it occurred to nobody that agreeing to be enemies with a group (that collects enemies as a form of twisted pleasure) is a form of strengthening the fucked up mentality within that group? I don't think so.
jumpy64 wrote:Actually, what I'm suggesting as a possibility here is that this "disproportionate minority", as you call it, exerts covert and undue influence over the "white-christian-western portion of the world" that you see as controlling the rest ofthe world, so for me it would still be a case of the former minority exerting a "disproportionate influence over the rest" by controlling in particular just the "white-christian-western portion" in question. I know this may sound a bit complicated, but I don't know how to express myself better here, so please forgive me and try to understand me anyway, if you will.
This suggestion is already the best you have written about what you think. Please continue to improve your expression and keep going. It seems like you are onto something, but you are using our forum as a place to practice your writing rather than presenting your best efforts. Maybe, gather your thoughts, come back to us with a more focused title for your thread and also some cohesive research that fits under that title.

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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by brianv » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:13 pm

At last - moderation!

The "News" and the "Jews" are both decoys or smokescreens for the Aristocrat Banking Dynasties from antiquity. As is "Politics", "Sport", "Education", "Entertainment", etc etc.

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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by Selene » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:28 pm

Excellently elaborated and nuanced post, hoi. My sincere compliments.

Two highlights from your outstanding set of reasonable and cautious arguments:
hoi.polloi wrote:....

I believe we could try to understand the location of the Zionist, Jewish, Talmudic, Masonic, Gnostic, Catholic, Christian, Islamic, Sufi, Shriner, Pagan, Ba'Hai, Scientologist, Mormon, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic and other "fraternal order" entry points to the core sect of psychopaths. And if we did, I believe we would find a universal problem with humanity applying once again to a particular historic time period (in which we now live) where a particularly large portion of the Jewish minority ethnicity happen to be the latest iteration of a fucking long lasting problem with how we fail to design ourselves better as a species.
Exactly the problem I have with "the Jewish conspiracy", "the Muslim conspiracy", "the Irish conspiracy", "the black conspiracy" and even the "US American conspiracy NWO theory" or any similar "one-solution-for-all-problems/one-ring-to-rule-them-all-theories".

The common denominator of conspirators, hoaxers, liars is psychopathy; lack of remorse, constant lying, manipulation fetishes, lack of self-reflection, arrogance and a deceptive smile or other illusionary methods. It is not religion, culture, race, skin colour, community or country. It is a psychological problem which x % of the human population suffers from (personally psychologically; the damage to others would make that percentage 100...). Cross-border on all of the by you and many more deceptive diversion tactically proposed "common features".

To state that there's a world-wide conspiracy from one of these propagandised "groups" (collections of individual humans based on nonsensical common factors) is like saying that the motive for the conspiracy is coming from such a "group".

What we see in the world, however, is a "psychopathical playground" of warfare and politics, media hoaxes and antiscientific lies, spread as info, disinfo, contra-info, misinfo, non-info and whatever other method these psychopaths share. Psychopaths everywhere, from all kinds of backgrounds, religions, countries, social classes and families.

The only reason why a topic like this should be anywhere outside of the "musings category" (people know which topics I see fitting there), is if jumpy could make a strong evidence-based case that:

1 - psychopathy and similar psychological handicaps are devastigingly more abundant amongst "Jews" (1: Judaists?, 2: Jews "by birth" (from a Jewish mother), 3: non-Jews according to "Jewish maternal laws" but ancestors of Jewish "blood"?, 4: "Khazarian-type"/Fake Jews who claim to be genealogically related to the "Jewish bloodline" -if that even exists-?) to have a statistical causal-relation case between "Jewry" and conspiracies/psycho behaviour.
2 - clear and rational arguments confirm that these conspiracies can be called "Jewish"; that they are coming from/based in a specific culture, religion or set of "rules" that can only be found amongst "Jews" (from each of one of the 4 "groups" mentioned before).

If this "Conspiracy" or "Hiding" were really to be "in Plain Sight" and "A Very Open" one (note all the capitalised letters in the title chosen by jumpy :rolleyes: -no capital there- ), it would be a piece of bar mitswah cake to present these arguments in a concised manner, not? :huh:
We cannot allow any form of prejudice to take over our clear rationale and focus on evidence, ...
Has it occurred to nobody that agreeing to be enemies with a group (that collects enemies as a form of twisted pleasure) is a form of strengthening the fucked up mentality within that group?
Very much agreed.

And the more one refrains from media influence and meets people from all religion, race, colour, and zillion other non-rational common denominators, the more one sees how much humanity is alike and that the split is not within those groups but between moral, self-reflecting, remorseful, sincere individual Homo sapiens and the lying, manipulating, power-hungry, hoaxing, deceiving psychopaths who want to create, maintain and spread the irrelevant separations; divide & conquer tactics.

Selene

PS: personally I see no fit for this musings topic on Cluesforum, but you're the admin.

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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by jumpy64 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:10 pm

Dear Hoi Polloi,

I must confess that I had to read your post a few times to understand what you meant exactly in some parts, and I'm not sure I succeded. Maybe because of personal limitations I can't seem to overcome right now, but i found your prose, usualy much more brilliant, a little convoluted here and there. I hope you won't take it as a personal offense, because it's not meant as such, it's just the honest opinion of an avid reader, and admirer, of many of your posts. Maybe it's just that your dialectic capabilities are superior to mine, also because you're using your own language and I'm not, so I can't understand certain subtleties yet.

Anyway, here I'll try to respond as clearly as I can to the observations I think I understood better. Here we go.
What is obviating about our threads that directly question the so-called "Jewish Holocaust", that openly point out the number of self-proclaimed Jews in the media and that constantly make plain our suspicion of names associated with the Jewish religions (Talmudic, Jewish atheism, etc.) and their naming conventions?
It's not my intention to obviate (I had to look this word up, I admit) anything. I know about at least one thread you mention (the one about "propaganda, censorship and media fakery"), so I wanted as little overlapping as possible. I wanted to confront the topic from a what seemed to me a more general and different perspective.
I understand the "artistry" of acting conspiratorial and whispery about something you identify as a censored topic, but on our forum I think what we could really use is something that shows faith in the mods, and more specific contentions.
Please, help us rename your thread to something less paranoid. How about "Reflections on Jewish influence" or something? Or, if you are trying to tell us "the ethnic group" you won't mention is because you don't know what it is, say that. And help us narrow it down instead of taking on the "alternative mainstream" position of setting up the "all Jews are so bad we can't talk about it" straw man.
If the name of the group is not something you have yet identified because it's hiding within the Jewish population, largely using the Jewish position, which in turn protects the conspiracy for a mutually-beneficial arrangement, that makes more sense to me. But then, it goes against your point that the conspiracy is "open".


I identify the topic in question as censored? It is a censored topic, if not the most censored one, at least in my country (but in others too), where people ended up in jail for speaking their minds about it in a critical way. But I've already said this in a previous post, so I can't understand why it doesn't sink in. And I hate to quote myself, but it seems necessary here: "if I'm being even blatantly overcautious here, it's to make the censorship that exists strikingly more evident, because I consider it a very telling anomaly in itself. It speaks more eloquently, I believe, than any more specific words I could use". I believe in what I said, and I can't but confirm it here. And of course I know that in other threads you use freely the specific terms I'm avoiding here, so I'm not saying that you censor them on Cluesforum.

So call it provocation, "artistry" (as you say), personal protection or even cowardice if you like (but everybody here understood what I'm talking about, so I'm not really protecting myself much; on the contrary, probably I've exposed myself even more, at least to criticism), but this is the way I've chosen to speak about this matter in this thread, and I've specified the reasons why. So if what I'm doing doesn't conform to this forum's standards, you can take any measure you deem necessary. You can eliminate the thread, if you want.

I'm not adding "and I don't care" because it's not true. I'd be sorry and disappointed if you did it. But I guess you can do it, either because you and Simon run this forum and have a recognized authority that I'm not questioning here (on the contrary, I think myself that your authority is totally legitimate) or because the majority of members would agree with you (as Selene and brianv are already saying while I'm writing this post).

But please, don't rename the thread, because if you did I feel it would lose its nature as I intended it. Really, I'd rather you delete the thread. I'm serious. I hope I have the authority at least to ask you this, since I "created" this thread, as you say yourself. I guess it wouldn't even be a big sacrifice for you, since you don't seem to find it very useful. It would be just ironic for me to be censored in a "conspiracy site". But mind you: I'm not looking forward to such an eventuality, nor I consider it probable. I'm just considering a "worst case scenario" to see what I'd be willing to accept. Not happily, of course, but my high esteem for you and Simon would prevent me to be a "sore loser" in any case.

As for the rest of your post, this is where you lost me a bit. We're probably on different wavelenght about certain things. It could very well be because I'm naive, misguided, or whatever you want. I'm not admitting to this, because I don't feel this way now, but maybe, I'll realize it one day, who knows. Or maybe you'll realize something too. We're all trying to grow and progress, so things can change at any moment for anyone.

But for now, after also having read Selene's last post, I must say that I don't buy into the "psychopaths" theory. Of course most people who run the world in the way we see here must be psychopaths, but this is not a psychiatric issue.

To me saying, like Selene does in her post, that the world is a "'psychopathical playground' of warfare and politics, media hoaxes and antiscientific lies, spread as info, disinfo, contra-info, misinfo, non-info and whatever other method these psychopaths share. Psychopaths everywhere, from all kinds of backgrounds, religions, countries, social classes and families" just muddles the water, creates confusion and leads nowhere. If this "psychopathical playground" theory is true, then we don't need investigators into media hoaxes and New World Order. What we need most would be a team of psychiatrists and psychologists. Is anybody here of that profession? Let's gather them quickly, what are we waiting for?

We don't even have to look any further, because Selene seems already positive about who's responsible for the current state of affairs. Like brianv too, although he prefers to blame other elusive and mysteriously generic groups like "Aristocrats, Banking Dynasties", and such. Yeah, let's tell it like it is to these bastards! After all, there's no laws against criticizing them, right?

What I was trying to do is identifying a kind of conditioning (cultural and religious) that I think could reasonably create a psychopathic mentality. And I see it as "open" because it's actually been in front of people's eyes for many, many years. I consider my attempt, however imperfect, much more constructive than chasing phantomatic entities like some seem to prefer to do here.

Really, some people here seem to me all too eager to close this thread. Could there be, even remotely, the possibility that I struck a nerve?
Please continue to improve your expression and keep going. It seems like you are onto something, but you are using our forum as a place to practice your writing rather than presenting your best efforts. Maybe, gather your thoughts, come back to us with a more focused title for your thread and also some cohesive research that fits under that title.
Thank you for your suggestion, Hoi. That's not what I feel like doing right now, but one day, who knows... I feel your good intentions towards me, anyway, and I won't blame you and Simon for anything you will decide.
Last edited by jumpy64 on Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by brianv » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:15 pm

Jumpy, never mind all the flowery talk! Why haven't you started a blog somewhere? Why did you bring this garbage here?

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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:32 pm

jumpy64, I think the thing we are generally butting heads about here is your artistic use of self-censorship, which you call provocation. We don't like provocation and emotional ploys. You'll see quite simply that we do not use them so often on CluesForum unless we truly suspect we are cornering a shill or team of shills.
"if I'm being even blatantly overcautious here, it's to make the censorship that exists strikingly more evident, because I consider it a very telling anomaly in itself. It speaks more eloquently, I believe, than any more specific words I could use".
You're right that I hadn't process this. My bad. But to censor yourself and then say you are being censored (in a passive voice) really smacks of hypnotism, manipulation and deceit. The kinds of stuff we are combating. To make an accusation while claiming you aren't making one just doesn't work for me. I'm sorry.

I do mean well. If you don't mind, I won't close or move the thread but I will just rename it slightly. If you consider this an affront to your artistic reasonings, we will just have to accept we are at cross-purposes (in naming conventions only). Please reconsider your desire to have the thread deleted in that case. I truly believe it serves everyone to be open. By feigning cowardice, we endorse cowardice and that doesn't make the heart brave to talk about censored issues.

Let's just speak plainly. There is a Jewish conspiracy. Definitely. It's powerful, and it hides well, even while making brazen "accomplishments" against humanity and (I would argue) even against their own purposes. Why is this necessary for you to play hide-and-seek with? Do you have something to hide on this matter? I doubt it. Please look within yourself and ask why it is you feel the need to do this. You could just be open and plain. Don't be afraid.

If you are afraid of being questioned by intelligent people, which it seems is part of the problem here, you will definitely have issues posting at CluesForum, whose goal is to encourage intelligent discourse. Not being as direct as possible in this scenario (especially when asked about something as directly as we have) is definitely something CluesForum will continue to shun in the future. We ban people for not using their own heads, for parading some preconceived notions that haven't received adequate questioning, but you are not guilty of any of that. You may have indeed "struck a nerve" but I'm not sure it's the one you don't like to talk about. It's more like you are conflating self-attack with censorship on purpose and, no offense meant to you (nor is any so-called "racism" intended), but that seems like a very Jewish thing to do.

I agree with brianv that you should probably just start a blog or something, somehow. Especially since you seem to be confused about ideas that ask questions of your theory you aren't allowing yourself to talk about. You said yourself you are having trouble articulating what you want to say. I am sorry for that, but I am sure if you spend time on it you will be able to speak to readers more plainly. That's what we need. A blog is not an insulting suggestion; it is a great technology that many people use to develop and hone their thoughts before going on to write very powerful works on their topic(s) of choice.

Also, we should really ask ourselves which stories about people being fined or sent to jail for talking about "Holocaust" issues in an intelligent way have actually occurred. Is it possible those stories are more of the same scare tactics we see bandied about in the "war on terrorism" vein? This thread may be used, or another thread could be started about that topic. I think we have had some posts about it in the past, too, which may be found if you search for "Holocaust" in our forum.

Your answers to the challenges about many ethnicities having similar problems to Judaism/Jewishness/Zionism/Jews are not strong. If you really believe Jews are the main black hats (hey, wait, they do wear black hats!) in the world picture, you're going to have to be very convincing to all the people that have experienced and noted all the non-Jews fucking people over constantly.

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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread post by fbenario » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:12 am

jumpy64 wrote:It would be just ironic for me to be censored in a "conspiracy site".
It should be obvious to you, and everyone else, that Cluesforum is NOT a conspiracy site.

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"Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspiracy"

Unread post by jumpy64 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:02 am

OK, Hoi Polloi, I'll have time to process your latest post during the weekend, since I won't have time to post anything at least in the next couple of days. I hope you guys won't miss me too much :D

As for the thread, you can do what you want with it, if you think it can be useful. And if that's the case, I'm glad to have contributed something, after all.

What bothers me about renaming it is that also the title of my first post should be changed. And in fact I see now that you've already changed it. Well, I think that title is (or I should say "was" by now) an essential part of the whole post, if not the most essential. In fact, the whole post kind of collapses if we see plainly in the title what I try to avoid saying in it. And I also think that it is the main characteristic of the conspiracy to be "very open", at least for being a conspiracy. And it's also a reference to H.G. Well's "Open Conspiracy", but I'm sure everybody here got that.

So can I at least add to the post the following statement, right after "a huge elephant in the room here":

The original title of my post is "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on a Very Open Conspiracy". It's been found inadequate by the administrators of this forum, who have changed it to what now appears above.

And then I would begin the following phrase with "By the way, I salute the many", etc.

I'm asking you to do it, please, because it seems that I don't have the option to change that post anymore. I hope you will do it.

One last thing for now: of course the suggestion of opening a blog wasn't the insulting part of the message you're referring to. Come on, you can't have missed the "garbage" part. That denoted aggressiveness and desire to offend. Not that I got offended at all. It just gave another confirmation that I "struck a nerve" in some people here.

But never mind. Thank you and have a nice weekend everybody.

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Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspiracy

Unread post by simonshack » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:48 am

hoi.polloi wrote: Also, we should really ask ourselves which stories about people being fined or sent to jail for talking about "Holocaust" issues in an intelligent way have actually occurred. Is it possible those stories are more of the same scare tactics we see bandied about in the "war on terrorism" vein?
Sorry Hoi, but you're completely missing the point here - and I will (somewhat reluctantly) respond to your appeal to "talk about" this tiresome, taboo-by-legislation issue in an intelligent way"- since you clearly have little or no grasp of the seriousness / gravity of the subject at hand. To be sure, I have no desire to enter an intellectual / internecine feud over this and, as a matter of fact, I am intervening here in the hope of defusing any such useless quarrels 'in their cradle'. However, please know that for me to even "talk about" this issue on a public website, I am possibly exposing myself (and perhaps even this forum) to undue aggravation - in one form or another, ranging from petty /unnecessary / 'random personal troubles' and all the way to - believe it or not - 5 years of imprisonment. To my best knowledge, some uncowardly folks around Europe have indeed been jailed for the 'thought crime' of simply questioning the official holocaust narrative - and credible (in my book) stories of such 'freedom-of-speech' martyrs abound. By suggesting - without a shred of evidence to back it up - that these stories may all be fake (and just part of the same scare tactics we're all familiar with), you are doing exactly what you just accused Jumpy of doing:
hoipolloi wrote:"To make an accusation while claiming you aren't making one just doesn't work for me."
Regardless - and as I said - whether these sad stories are true or not is NOT the point here. The point is the following, undeniable, disturbing and very tangible reality that (citing Wickedpedia) "Holocaust denial, the denial of the systematic genocidal killing of millions of ethnic minorities in Europe (including Jews) by Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 1940s, is illegal in 14 European nations." As it is, that figure should now be "15" - since the Italian Senate recently passed such a law - on February 11 this year (with an overwhelming majority 234 /vs/ 11 vote !!! ) - which introduces penalties ranging from one to five years of imprisonment for said "thought crimes". Please translate this Italian news item for yourself:
"Anche l'Italia avrà la sua legge contro il negazionismo. Ieri, in tempi record, la commissione Giustizia del Senato ha approvato quasi all'unanimità un emendamento che modifica l'articolo 414 del codice penale, quello riguardante l'istigazione a delinquere e l'apologia di delitto, aggiungendo appunto il reato di negazionismo, punito da uno a cinque anni di carcere."
http://www.polisblog.it/post/163659/ddl ... sara-reato
Countries with laws against Holocaust denial
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_agai ... denial.png


As you can see, no such unspeakably outrageous 'special' laws have been passed in the USA or the UK, so it would seem entirely inappropriate for you - from the safety of your national 'comfort zone' - to insinuate in any way or form any 'cowardice' on the part of Jumpy who, like myself and MOST European citizens, put our very personal freedoms at stake - only for expressing our thoughts on these matters on a publicly accessible website.
hoipolloi wrote:By feigning cowardice, we endorse cowardice and that doesn't make the heart brave to talk about censored issues.
I must say that I'm quite appalled / disconcerted by your 'treatment' of this good, thoughtful and particularly intelligent Italian friend of mine whom you have even met in person - ffs - here at my house. Yes, you do owe him an apology right away (in Italy, to call someone a 'codardo' - or even hint such a thing - is perhaps the most degrading of insults) - and please do not arbitrarily rename any threads submitted by entirely legit / trustworthy forum members anymore. Yup, I'm quite upset - and no, I don't expect you to feel 'hurt' by this post of mine.



*****
EDIT ! Ok, so I now re-read your post, Hoi - and realized that you were not implying any cowardice on the part of Jumpy (but only that if this thread were deleted - it could be interpreted as such). Sorry - I duly retract, my bad!

simonshack
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Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspiracy

Unread post by simonshack » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:25 pm

omaxsteve wrote:Here is an interesting, albeit long. article written by a Muslim ....
By: Dr Farrukh Saleem

Why are Jews so powerful?

(............bla...................
..............bla...............
..............bla...............
..............bla...............)


So, why are Muslims so powerless?
Answer: Lack of education.

All we do is shout to Allah the whole day !!! and blame everyone else for our multiple failures!!!!!
Omaxsteve,

Just in what way, if you please, is that article 'interesting' - or relevant to the present discussion? :wacko:

Oh wait - I take it that the 'lesson' you're proposing here is that education is the key to becoming powerful? And that if 'uneducated people' are powerless - it is just due to their 'inferior education'? And that if (so many) Jews are rich & powerful - it is simply to be ascribed to their 'superior education' ? Good grief.

Excuse me, but just because that pathetic piece is authored by a Muslim writer doesn't make it sound any less crass than your average, shallow and condescending imperialist 'think tank' twaddle - as might just as well have been put together by your typical, gloating Jewish supremacist. So let's see who this Farrukh Saleem guy is - and what he's up to.

Image
"Dr. Farrukh Saleem is the Pakistani Executive Director of the Center for Research and Security Studies, a think tank established in 2007, and an Islamabad-based freelance columnist - [ cum-economic theorist, financial analyst writer, and television personality]."
http://www.aish.com/authors/111846219.html

"The Center for Research and Security Studies (CRSS) is a Pakistani independent non-profit think tank founded by civil society activists to conduct research and advocacy on democratic governance, regional peace and security, human rights, and counter-radicalization. The head of the think tank is Imtiaz Gul, a strategic analyst, writer, and journalist. Besides writing for national and international magazines, he is the author of books such as The Unholy Nexus: Afghan-Pakistan Relations under the Taliban Militia, The Al-Qaeda Connection, The Most Dangerous Place, and Pakistan: Before and After Osama bin Laden."

"Saleem extensively writes on Jewish people, Israel and its geopolitical policies. In his recent article, Saleem advocated for directing a friendly-foreign policy for Israel. In his notable article, "Why are Jews so powerful and Muslims so powerless?", Saleem argues that, for every single Jew in the world there are 100 Muslims. Yet, Jews are more than a hundred times more powerful than all the Muslims put together. Concluding the article, Saleem pointed out that, the Muslim world is failing to diffuse knowledge".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrukh_Saleem
Aha! So it is KNOWLEDGE - and not EDUCATION - that's the real problem here. Well, come to think of it, our Farrukh "think tanker" guy may actually have a great point after all: just imagine what would happen if the entire Muslim world were properly informed with the knowledge we have gathered over the years on this very forum. See, something tells me that the folks controlling the world's media outlets are working very, very hard to keep this knowledge from reaching the Muslim world.

hoi.polloi
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:40 pm

simonshack wrote:
hoi.polloi wrote: Also, we should really ask ourselves which stories about people being fined or sent to jail for talking about "Holocaust" issues in an intelligent way have actually occurred. Is it possible those stories are more of the same scare tactics we see bandied about in the "war on terrorism" vein?
Sorry Hoi, but you're completely missing the point here
Sorry Simon. I didn't know you felt so strongly about it until now. Literally every other time we've talked about, we talked about it calmly and peaceably. We even speculated together that some of the more famous stories may have been faked. I guess you forgot that.

I trust you and your friends definitely feel threatened by such horrible laws, and I would not want to be in your place, that's for sure!
To my best knowledge, some uncowardly folks around Europe have indeed been jailed for the 'thought crime' of simply questioning the official holocaust narrative - and credible (in my book) stories of such 'freedom-of-speech' martyrs abound.
No offense meant at all, and I trust your judgment, but if you don't mind, let's post some credible stories about it, then? Isn't that consistent with the site? Being an ignorant American who visited Europe several times, I never once heard or saw a story in the news about someone going to jail for "antisemitism" or holocaust denial.
By suggesting - without a shred of evidence to back it up - that these stories may all be fake (and just part of the same scare tactics we're all familiar with), you are doing exactly what you just accused Jumpy of doing:
hoipolloi wrote:"To make an accusation while claiming you aren't making one just doesn't work for me."
I don't think it's the same thing. I really am standing by my stance that all the stories could be fake but I am just asking the question. I don't know. If you say they aren't all fake that's fine, that's your prerogative and it shows the double standard on our forum that many have accused us of. But if you read me as hiding my opinion, you're wrong. Sorry.
Regardless - and as I said - whether these sad stories are true or not is NOT the point here.
Well then why get so upset with me about it? :lol:
"Anche l'Italia avrà la sua legge contro il negazionismo. Ieri, in tempi record, la commissione Giustizia del Senato ha approvato quasi all'unanimità un emendamento che modifica l'articolo 414 del codice penale, quello riguardante l'istigazione a delinquere e l'apologia di delitto, aggiungendo appunto il reato di negazionismo, punito da uno a cinque anni di carcere."
http://www.polisblog.it/post/163659/ddl ... sara-reato
Well, that's certainly disturbing. Someone said at the bottom of that article that the "crime of opinion" is nearer to reality with the passing of such laws. It reminds me of "crimethink" from 1984.
... to insinuate in any way or form any 'cowardice' on the part of Jumpy who, like myself and MOST European citizens, put our very personal freedoms at stake - only for expressing our thoughts on these matters on a publicly accessible website.
hoipolloi wrote:By feigning cowardice, we endorse cowardice and that doesn't make the heart brave to talk about censored issues.
I must say that I'm quite appalled / disconcerted by your 'treatment' of this good, thoughtful and particularly intelligent Italian friend of mine whom you have even met in person - ffs - here at my house.
Sorry to you and your friend Simon. Gianpiero is a cool dude for sure. But do you know the meaning of the word "feign"? :P

Jumpy64 said this:
So call it provocation, "artistry" (as you say), personal protection or even cowardice if you like (but everybody here understood what I'm talking about, so I'm not really protecting myself much; on the contrary, probably I've exposed myself even more, at least to criticism)
What does this mean? How do you read this? I'll tell you how I read it. I read it to say, "You may call me all sorts of names that you did not in fact call me but everyone knows what I mean."

He basically invited and instructed us to call him a coward, while also basically admitting nobody called him that. But I don't think he is one, which is why I would say I rather think he's a really cool guy who is writing on a difficult sensitive topic; so I wrote: "By feigning cowardice, we endorse cowardice." What does that mean? It means I am saying jumpy64 has a brave heart and he doesn't need to make other people afraid. He was pretending (feigning) to be afraid of this issue solely as a point of the argument he just used that he won't suffer name calling. I didn't call him the name you think.

If you disagree, and you think he is afraid, you owe your friend an apology yourself!

Anyway, I understand why it makes you upset. It's a really horrible series of laws. I just feel as though your "offense" came out of nowhere and was read in haste. Don't be so "jumpy" man! B)

You changed the topic back from "Jewish Conspiracy" which this topic is about even though our forum is chock full of things that paranoid customers will call "antisemitic" remarks. So, really no offense meant to your sensibilities, but what's the point of doing the same thing as jumpy64?

If people search "Jewish conspiracy" they will get to this thread anyway. I don't understand what you think you are hiding by not calling it what it is. And mark me, I am not calling you a coward. I just don't understand your logic.

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