Yugoslavia

Anything on the news and elsewhere in the media with evidence of digital manipulation, bogus story-lines and propaganda
hoi.polloi
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Yugoslavia

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

warriorhun said in the Egypt thread:
I approve the cutting up of Yugoslavia, except one thing: the Serbs still occupy Hungarian territories taken away with the 1920 Trianon Treaty
I have heard from a lot of people that Yugoslavia was a favored arrangement of those within it - or at least that there was some good meant by it. I have also heard that Serbian lands - though a historic Hungarian enemy - are now being occupied by "Turks" and/or "Muslims" who kick Serbs out of their land and occupy their homes. I have also heard that the whole reason the UN exists - or rather, one thing the UN did to make themselves such a big gang in the first place - was to destroy Yugoslavia and arrest various "dictators" to prevent the unification of an Eastern European power to challenge the perceived "West".

I have also been told that Slobodan Milošević was pretty horrible and the footage of what he "achieved" in Serbia was as vomit-inducing as the Vietnam napalm scenes. Was Zoran Đinđić really assassinated or was he one of the gang?

Please, warriorhun, enlighten me from your perspective. I want to weigh my opinions on this matter against someone who understands fakery but has lived through a more Eastern European side of it their whole life. I cannot sort propaganda from truth on these distant topics.
nonhocapito
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by nonhocapito »

I wanted to answer to that statement by warriorhun myself, since my opinion about the Serbs differs completely. In the context of the breaking down of Yugoslavia the Serbs are the ones who have paid the highest price, and still pay it today. The fact that they have been scapegoated by NATO and the European warmongers pretty much tells the story. The breaking down of Yugoslavia was carried pretty much as the Libya invasion. To demonize the leader and the ruling elite was the first, crucial step. That war was won essentially in terms of propaganda before having been won on the ground (in fact, it took years to win it on the ground). It was necessary to make of the Serbs "monsters" because they were the ones that were going to oppose the division of the nation more than everyone else. I think it is pretty much a proved fact that many of the alleged crimes of the Serbs have never been committed (while many have been committed by the parts that -- for some reason -- wanted the separation), and I am pretty sure that the most publicized cases (Srebrenica) were a product of fakery.
The tribunals at Aja, were Milosevic "died of natural causes" are a shameful example of the double standards of the European globalists.
I don't approve the separation of Yugoslavia in the sense that it is merely the result of the greed of the globalists and nothing else. And I don't believe for a second that the Serbs did "ethnic cleansing" -- although I have a hunch that Albanians did, in Kosovo. I have read enough propaganda about this for too many years to buy these stories as true. I doubt that episodes from the "victimization of Hungary" history book will make me change my mind either.
fbenario
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by fbenario »

nonhocapito wrote:I wanted to answer to that statement by warriorhun myself, since my opinion about the Serbs differs completely. In the context of the breaking down of Yugoslavia the Serbs are the ones who have paid the highest price, and still pay it today. The fact that they have been scapegoated by NATO and the European warmongers pretty much tells the story. The breaking down of Yugoslavia was carried pretty much as the Libya invasion. To demonize the leader and the ruling elite was the first, crucial step. That war was won essentially in terms of propaganda before having been won on the ground (in fact, it took years to win it on the ground). It was necessary to make of the Serbs "monsters" because they were the ones that were going to oppose the division of the nation more than everyone else. I think it is pretty much a proved fact that many of the alleged crimes of the Serbs have never been committed (while many have been committed by the parts that -- for some reason -- wanted the separation), and I am pretty sure that the most publicized cases (Srebrenica) were a product of fakery.
The tribunals at Aja, were Milosevic "died of natural causes" are a shameful example of the double standards of the European globalists.
I don't approve the separation of Yugoslavia in the sense that it is merely the result of the greed of the globalists and nothing else. And I don't believe for a second that the Serbs did "ethnic cleansing" -- although I have a hunch that Albanians did, in Kosovo. I have read enough propaganda about this for too many years to buy these stories as true. I doubt that episodes from the "victimization of Hungary" history book will make me change my mind either.
Nonho, this is accurate in every way, and every word. Hoi, I hate to say it, but your analysis sounds a little too much like the established, mainstream, 'approved' version of the situation. If I've misread your post in any way, I apologize.
hoi.polloi
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

Well I really haven't heard much more than the mainstream stories. You'll find that some of what I said actually goes along with nonhocapito's story and some not. Although I'm curious to know what you know/think of the matter fbenario?

And I'm still quite curious about the warrior hungarian's take.
warriorhun
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by warriorhun »

Dear hoi.polloi,

I am kind of flattered that you are that much interested in my opinion on this topic. I am happy to oblige. But this is a long story, so I will answer in two separate parts, if you don't mind. In the first part, today, I will explain the core basis of my views, without which it can not be understood: Trianon. Because, in my opinion, the cutting up of Yugoslavia can be considered as the "Serb Trianon", and because of Yugoslavia was created with the help of the original Trianon, so my opinion is two-sided which are in conflict with each other...

So, Trianon. Of course I am talking about the greatest historical tragedy ever of Hungary and the Hungarians, which is still existing and still unsolved. Of course I am talking about the blackest day of Hungarian history, the 4th of June 1920, the Treaty of Trianon. The most un-just peace treaty ever, which was aiming the total destruction of a 1000 years old Christian kingdom and her peoples: the Hungarian Kingdom and the ethnic Hungarians!

After WW1-which was supposedly fought as a "war to end all wars"-the Entente Cordiale (Antant) created a "peace to end all peace".

Its a fact that Hungary was not independent before and during WW1, but was ruled by the Austrian House of Habsburg. The Habsburgs held in their hands the financial-, military-, and foreign policy of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Still, when Hungary got independent at the end of WW1, we were treated and punished as if the whole fucking war was all our fault-when in fact Tisza István, the Hungarian Prime Minister in 1914, personally begged Habsburg Franz Joseph the Second NOT to start the war...

Between 1918 and 1920, with inside help in 1918 from the traitor pro-Antant Károlyi Mihály and his cronies, and in 1919 from the Bolshevik Jews of Kun Béla and their class war and red terror, the Entente Cordiale gave away-as if it was theirs to give in the first place- 2/3rd of the 1000 years old Hungarian Kingdom along with millions of ethnic Hungarians to Czechslovakia and Yugoslavia-two countries which did not even exist before!!!-and Romania. The lands of Hungary decreased from 325,000 km2 to 92,000 km2- for example Romania got Transsylvania (Erdély) which in itself is bigger than all that remained as Hungary!-to me this hurts the most, as half of my family is of the Székely Peoples (Transsylvanian Hungarians), 10 million ethnic Hungarians remained inside, while 5 million ethnic Hungarians remained outside of the new borders. The Treaty of Trianon confirmed this un-just horror for once and for all!

Here I attach a map to give a bit of visible overview:
Image
The territorial dismemberment of Hungary by the treaty of Trianon, June 4, 1920
(the orange lines represent the pre-1920 borders, the grey lines the
borders after 1920, and the areas lost by Hungary are coloured)



Dear nonhocapito,

you say:
I doubt that episodes from the "victimization of Hungary" history book will make me change my mind either
I hope it is only a poor choice of words on your part... or are you implying that the tragic fate of the 1000 years old Hungarian Kingdom and the noble, freedom-loving ethnic Hungarians is OK and and the Treaty of Trianon was justified???



Now, on the map above, the South-Western part, down on the left, colored in light green, is Croatia-Slavonia, a historically autonomous partner kingdom of Hungary, the Croatian Kingdom, ethnic Croatian lands. We have no claims there, we are happy with a souvereign Croatia of the freedom-loving Croatian nation! (About Hungary's contribution to Croatian war of independence in the 1990s I will write a few words later).

However, the Southern part, down in the middle, colored in dark green, is Délvidék or Vajdaság (the Serbs call it Vojvodina), its centre is the city of Újvidék (the Serbs call it Novi Sad): all that is Hungarian land with ethnic Hungarians, which was occupied by Yugoslavia, now is part of Serbia. This land is what I was talking about in that comment in the Eqypt-topic, the one you quoted:
warriorhun said in the Egypt thread:
I approve the cutting up of Yugoslavia, except one thing: the Serbs still occupy Hungarian territories taken away with the 1920 Trianon Treaty
I approve the cutting up of Yugoslavia in 1941 either-well, as far as the liberation of Délvidék was concerned. Its evident that the Antant and the Small-Antant (Czechslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia), and later in WW2 the Allies, were interested in keeping up the Trianoni status quo, while ever since the only goal of every patriotic Hungarian politician and the Hungarian state under patriotic rule was to liberate our occupied lands and our brothers and sisters over the border! It is written in flames over the heart of every real Hungarian patriot, in- or outside of the Trianoni borders : "Mutilated Hungary is not a country, whole Hungary is Paradise!" and "I believe in the resurrection of Hungary!". And those flames are still burning today in our hearts-if not openly, then secretly (as it was taboo under Communism, and is frown on today in our so-called "Democracy").
So it is evident that we needed strong partners to make the dream come true: and we found those partners in Uncle Wolf and Il Duce.

So between 1938 and 1941, with the help of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, we managed to liberate some of our lands and our brothers and sisters, as the following map shows:

Image

Between 1938 and 1941, Felvidék (today Southern Slovakia) according to the 1938 Vienna Arbitration, Kárpátalja (today part of the Ukraine, back then it was part of Czechoslovakia), Észak-Erdély (Northern-Transsylvania) according to the 1940 Second Vienna Arbitration, and at the end Délvidék (now part of Serbia) returned into the loving arms of the Hungarian Kingdom, with the help of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini, God bless both of them and R.I.P. both their noble souls!

Shaking down the shackles of the evil Trianon Treaty, our troops liberating our lands were met with such happiness from the part of our liberated peoples that I can not describe it in words. Adult men crying and cheering, young women throwing flowers and kissing every honvéd (soldier) they could catch, a big fiesta. My grandpa took part in it, and I hope the day will come when I-or at least my grandkids-will have the luck to repeat it.

Here I attach a video of the 1938 liberation of Kassa (now Kosice, Slovakia), just to give an indication of the mood, with music:

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIqod0qg2Jc

The temporary happiness came with a price: as an Axis country, we joined the great Anti-Bolshevist Crusade against the Soviet, we lost the war, and with it, in 1947 Paris, the Trianon borders were reinstated, and Hungary started the building of Communism under the watchful eye of Comrade Uncle Joe Stalin.

Délvidék was returned to Yugoslavia, and Tito and his Serb partisans introduced themselves to the ethnic Hungarian citizens of the territory in 1945 and '46 with a big, all-out massacre: 40,000 ethnic Hungarian civilians were brutally torture-murdered: those who were simply shot were the lucky ones.

This is where I finish off today, without happy ending. Actually, there will be no happy ending later either, I'm afraid.

To be continued during this week-end, so stay tuned: the second part of my-subjective-comment will be about the recent civil war of 1990s Yugoslavia!
Last edited by warriorhun on Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
fbenario
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by fbenario »

hoi.polloi wrote:Well I really haven't heard much more than the mainstream stories. You'll find that some of what I said actually goes along with nonhocapito's story and some not. Although I'm curious to know what you know/think of the matter fbenario?

And I'm still quite curious about the warrior hungarian's take.
I think Nonho laid out the motives of the perp Western forces quite well. In any case, since the government and media coached us all to see the NATO forces as somehow being the side of 'good', and the Serbs as the side of 'bad', almost by definition we now know that the reality is most likely reversed. Of course none of this means Milosevic was good in any way, or that any of us would choose to live under him.
hoi.polloi
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

Fbenario, it seems to me so far that the real victims in all this are usually those effected by the post-war "deciders".

The Zionists and the Jesuits and the Anglophiles don't all completely explain - to me - this group of white men who keep breaking up nations and borders in the name of peace.

For instance, it so far seems as though the post-WWI Western European powers who chopped up Palestine and put down British there to claim the Jewish population "owned" this made up thing called Israel are related to the people who keep promising a New World Order and a New World Order and another New World Order over and over ... after each of these intra-European wars; they always just deliver chaos by rearranging territories inexplicably, fucking up the previous arrangement which was already confusing enough in the first place. So it's just one broken promise on top of another and not even fifty years between each to give one promise a chance to work.

Then their media says, "Whew! Let the war end! Please! Thank you! The New World Order is good. Let's have it!" and this usually means another epic series of ethnic peoples getting fucked over.

The Serbs got Hungarian land, and then in turn they got their land taken from them again, and both parties are upset. Then we have these politicians all over claiming to be unifiers and they almost always seem to make matters worse. I am not saying an alternative is any better. It's fine that we have idealism, but why does it always seem to manifest in this way on the global scale in the last hundred years?
antipodean
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by antipodean »

Interesting post Warrior Hun.
Maybe Hitler could empathise with the plight of the Hungarian speaking peoples, given that when the Nazis initially marched into Poland and Czechoslovakia, Hitler's main agenda was to absorb it's German speaking minorities into a Greater Germany.

Also my understanding of Tito is that he was a Croation, who was anti Nazi, despite Croations (like most Catholic nations) in general being sympathetic to the Nazis.

I think that when it comes to the subject of geopolitical unrest, it pays not to become to polarised.
reel.deal
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by reel.deal »

warriorhun wrote: stay tuned: the second part of my-subjective-comment will be about the recent civil war of 1990s Yugoslavia!
reel.deal wrote:Check this out! ..."In Theater" US/NATO use early 90's US Military VR VirtualReality 3D Terrain-Mapping technology
with Milosovic to thrash out a route of safe-passage for Muslims to leave through a Gorazde/Sarajevo "Corridor"...

(documentary) "The Death of Yugoslavia" (1995) (Part 3/3)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2ad_1193121294 @ 1hr.18 mins >

Image

http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=15
I know, i know, its BBC; but still... i have the whole 6 hours original series broadcast on a single DVD; sorry,
not getting into uploading that monster. Watched the whole 6 hours in 1 go at work around a year ago.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Yugoslavia
heres the 3 hour re-edit...

PT 1. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0eb_1193114058 (41:54)
PT 2. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=040_1193114960 (48:00)
PT 3. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2ad_1193121294 (86:11)

recommended...
pov603
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by pov603 »

@reel.deal
Many thanks for posting the links to the documentary.
Very informative and infuriating.
warriorhun
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by warriorhun »

Dear hoi.polloi, and All,

here is part 2.

nonhocapito says:
It was necessary to make of the Serbs "monsters" because they were the ones that were going to oppose the division of the nation more than everyone else.
While I agree that Serbs were monsterized in the '90s, I highlighted the word nation for a reason. Was there ever a Yugoslavian nation? Hardly.

Yugoslavia was a kind of federal state, of semi-autonomius local states: Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia-Hertzegovina, Macedonia, etc... The "nation" was of different ethnicities with different religions: Catholic Croats, Orthodox Serbs, Muslim Bosniaks (who were originally Serbs and Croats who took up Islam during the Ottoman Turk occupation of the Middle Ages), etc... Using today's phraseology, it was a Multikultural Society, where "different ethnicities and religions live together in harmony and understanding, respecting each other...(or not ^_^ ...)"-which should be a warning sign number 1. to all who want to enforce Multikulturalism in our societies: this is how it works in practice and this is what it will result in on the long run!

While at the end of WW1, even for some locals it may seemed like a good idea to unite all Southern Slavs in one state, but for example not all Croats approved of exchanging the Habsburgs ruling over them from Vienna to a Serb Monarch ruling over them from Belgrade. This later led to the forming of for example the Croatian Ustaša movement.

I won't delve on the pre-WW2 history; suffice it to say that when Uncle Wolf sent in his Nazi troops to occupy Yugoslavia in 1941, the Croats were happy to form their independent Croatian state, and were quite un-happy when the Communist partisans of Comrade Tito "liberated" them. For some reason, Hungary was considered the "jackal of Hitler" for taking part in the war against Yugoslavia in 1941 and accepting the "Yugoslavian" territories of Délvidék from Hitler's hands, as if those territories were not ours in the first place. Because, the Hungarian army stopped at the pre-Trianon Hungarian borders: we wanted nothing more than what is ours, and only took part in that war to that limit. The Hungarian Prime Minister, Teleki Pál always wanted a revision of the Trianon Treaty with Western approval, and this was just the opposite with the looming tragedy of getting into war status with the Allied powers; but on the other hand it was morally impossible for a Hungarian patriot to refuse co-operation with the Germans to take back our lands. He did not see the way out of this dilemma: that great, noble Hungarian politician shot himself in the head, God rest his soul in peace.

In the Western history books, you mostly learn that in Yugoslavia there was a partisan warfare to kick out the Germans. The situation was much more complex: it was an all-out civil war, everybody along the dividing lines of the ethnical, religious and political paletta trying to cut the throats of everybody else. The Ustaša went with the Germans, and there was even a Bosniak Muslim SS-Division fighting. The Serb Chetniks were decidedly anti-German, some of them Communist, but some of them Monarchist. We all know Tito and the Commies won at the end, but the emnity and hatered remained.
At the end of WW2, there was serious ethnic cleansing. The German minority ceased to exist, also 40,000 Hungarian civilians went into mass-graves. They were all considered fascists, "war criminals" and collectively guilty. The West did not give a fuck, and what is more, the non-Communist "Yugoslavs" like the Croats who escaped to the West were sent back to Tito: most of these people were executed soon as they stepped onto their Yugoslav homeland.
Under Communism everybody had to be internationalist and Communist officially or else. So the hatred simmered under the surface, waiting for the next round of free-for-all to come.

There were no Soviet troops in Yugoslavia, so Tito decided to follow his own Communist way as he pleases, which led to a break-up with Uncle Joe Stalin who believed that only the Soviet path leads to real Communism. As Hungary was next-door neighbour, with Comrade Rákosi (Rosenfeld) Mátyás leading the Hungarian Communist Party, this led to border-conflicts (of course, these border conflicts were NOT based on Hungarian territorial claims: nothing would be further from Hungarian Communists than such "fascist" considerations. Trianon was one of the greatest taboo topics in Communist Hungary) , and the risk of a war with Yugoslavia was very real, even up to a WW3-scare. Tito was considered the running dog of capitalists, and Rákosi and Stalin decided to kick Tito's ass with an organised show trial against some Hungarian Communists. Rajk László and his cronies (all bloody-handed Reds by the way) were falsely accused with conspiring with Tito to murder Rákosi and his cronies. The "Rajk-gang" was hanged.

Now, I still do not understand what is the point of such show-trials when all parties know that it's fake... Rákosi knew it's fake, Stalin knew it's fake, Tito knew it's fake, Rajk knew it's fake (Kádár János told Rajk László that Rákosi knows Rajk is innocent, and if he co-operates, they will send him to the Sovietunion in secret, which was of course a lie). This only resulted in the death of faithful Commies, but these how things were going in Bolshevik circles. But what is the point escapes me...

Under Tito, the Yugoslav Socialism was a-compared to the Stalinist countries-relatively saner and more "free" society. In 1956, the Communist reformers in Hungary wanted partly to kind of copy the Yugoslavian way of Socialism (everybody else just wanted to forget the whole Commie shit once and for all ;) ) or rather, wanted a national, Hungarian Communism and viewed Yugoslavia as an example of a working version of national Communism. The rehabilitation and re-burial of Rajk by the Communist Party!! was an important prelude on the path to the 1956 Hungarian revolution. The innocence of Rajk shook the honest Communists (strange, but it seems like there were some such people, though not that very many) to the core.

Khruschev crushed the revolution with Tito's approval, and it was Tito who suggested that instead of the blood-thirsty Münnich Ferenc, the new leader of Hungary should be Kádár János who was relatively sane. It was the Yugoslavian Embassy where Nagy Imre, the Hungarian Prime Minister of the revolution and his group of reform-Communist followers took asylum, and it was from where the Russians and Kádár kidnapped the "Nagy-group", among whom Nagy Imre and others were hanged, the others imprisoned.

Now, fast-forward, or rather, back to the future: Yugoslavia went on her separate Communist ways, they were more free and economically better off than the rest of the Communist countries. They could travel to the West, lots of Yugo workers went to Germany to work for example. They were the envy of the Eastern-bloc, for example they had jeans!! (wearing decadent clothing like jeans was a big thing among Eastern-block kids, who wanted nothing more that wallowing in Coca-Cola-"high" while listening to beat-music vinyls smuggled in from Yugoslavia :) ).
Of course, Yugoslav kids were brought up on official stories and films of the brave WW2 Chetniks and Partisans kicking German ass (and Croat kids listened to their Grandpa's secret stories of the glorious times when Grandpa was Ustasa...), and the Southern Slavs were always warlike, macho people... But peace and prosperity reigned, everybody was officially Yugoslav and living conditions were improving, so it was almost as if a happy ending was near.

Almost.
But in 1980 Comrade Tito died (though some may consider this as a happy ending, too...) and his life's work started to crumbling.
This is where I will pick up the thread in my next comment: that will be really about the '90s, I promise! So, stay tuned...
Last edited by warriorhun on Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hoi.polloi
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

this is how [multi-culturalism] works in practice and this is what it will result in on the long run!
I think it's a bit naive to assume the same result from different circumstances, but on the other hand it does take several generations to figure out if it works or not. Take America for example. It's more Germanic-Franco-Nordic-Anglo-European at "first wave" of white settlers. But now you see an average white kid walking around and saying, "I don't give a shit about my past. My past is my grandpa's. Fuck grandpa. I am an American!!" Wow. Smart kid. Except for all the people his ancestors seriously fucked who remember what really happened. These folks think they are merely an American with no cultural evil because they got to start out with the clean slate - sorta "all Americans are innocent" - sorta like Political Correctness or something.

I wonder: is this phenomenon also happening at all in Hungary - some people saying "I am a Yugoslavian!" and that was their whole identity? Or does everyone who claims to identify with Yugoslavia also come away with "well I am a Hungarian Yugoslavian" for example? I am curious.

In America there are millions of children ignorant of their parents' and grandparents' lives - let alone their culture. Many of them are decent people. So is culture important? Or not?

The Rajk-Rákosi event is confusing to me, even with all that you know about it. (It makes me wonder if the Obama-Osama similarity might be a deliberately coordinated "fluke" to create confusion in the history books ... but that's too paranoid of course.)

I wonder if there are fake "underground" types in your area like on the radio or something (I am thinking a Hungarian "Alex Jones") who promotes this Rajk-Rákosi story as central to the Hungarian narrative ... or did you construct it yourself? Actually, in general, did you construct most of this history you are giving from common knowledge, etc.? It doesn't matter; it's your perspective. I just want to know if my thoughts are even useful to your story or not.

I am kind of exploring the idea that history is almost useless to try to record ... but maybe it isn't.
warriorhun
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by warriorhun »

Dear hoi.polloi,

you say:
These folks think they are merely an American with no cultural evil because they got to start out with the clean slate - sorta "all Americans are innocent" - sorta like Political Correctness or something.
I find this approach of the Americans very curious, or strange. Outside of America, everybody thinks Americans start out guilty because of the killing of millions of Indians and taking away their lands...
But America is a special case, it makes sense to identify themselves as Americans and nothing else. But remembering the past is important to understand what is happening in the present.

You say:
I wonder: is this phenomenon also happening at all in Hungary - some people saying "I am a Yugoslavian!" and that was their whole identity? Or does everyone who claims to identify with Yugoslavia also come away with "well I am a Hungarian Yugoslavian" for example?
The Hungarians living in ex-Yugoslavia are identifying themselves as ethnic Hungarians, "Yugoslavian Hungarian" is only defining the place where they live or came from. Since 2010 the Hungarians over the Trianon-borders can have Hungarian citizenship too, so most of them have dual citizenship now, which is a very big thing for us and for them.

you say:
I wonder if there are fake "underground" types in your area like on the radio or something (I am thinking a Hungarian "Alex Jones") who promotes this Rajk-Rákosi story as central to the Hungarian narrative ... or did you construct it yourself? Actually, in general, did you construct most of this history you are giving from common knowledge, etc.?
The events I described are basic facts of Hungarian history and its Yugoslav connections of the times: common knowledge, at least for us Hungarians :) .
I tried to talk about them in an entertaining fashion and style - whether with success or not is up to you to decide - composing the story with my own words instead of copy-pasting some dull history-book text. The Rákosi-Rajk story was really a very important event of those times, the re-burial of Rajk happened on 1956 October 6., barely two weeks before the revolution.
hoi.polloi
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

I find this approach of the Americans very curious, or strange. Outside of America, everybody thinks Americans start out guilty because of the killing of millions of Indians and taking away their lands...
Absolutely correct and justified. The phenomenon I describe is a sort of constant "erase history as it happens" thing that's been happening in America since its foundation. For instance, the holiday of "Thanksgiving" which is about to occur in America is actually a very twisted and stomach-turning warping of actual events -- wherein pilgrims lived happily in peace with the first Nations of the Americas and then something eventually turned sour because of inherently evil "Injuns". That's the fairy tale. In fact, the pilgrims were dying because of a very pathetic lack of knowledge about basic living in the wild. An ex-slave Pequot named Squanto allegedly taught them everything and fed them. In thanks, settlers slaughtered the Pequot and the beheaded heads of "savages" were kicked through the streets of the white villages.

I do not bring up bad ghosts to dishonor anyone. I only mean to inspire Americans who read about history to not forget the many times we have blatantly written over the truth for prideful and arrogant and unjustified reasons. Parents in America teach their children to warp history from an early age -- most heinously by not teaching it at all. This is what I mean by the "curious" behavior of American parents who find it okay to skip over and dance around the unpleasantness and claim it is their right as Americans to simply call their child innocent and free of this knowledge. I pity the poor kids with true understanding of history that have to deal with other kids who never wake up.

You say:
Now, I still do not understand what is the point of such show-trials when all parties know that it's fake... Rákosi knew it's fake, Stalin knew it's fake, Tito knew it's fake, Rajk knew it's fake (Kádár János told Rajk László that Rákosi knows Rajk is innocent, and if he co-operates, they will send him to the Sovietunion in secret, which was of course a lie). This only resulted in the death of faithful Commies, but these how things were going in Bolshevik circles. But what is the point escapes me...
I think the reason is because of this practice of denying the truth constantly, writing history down inaccurately and promoting it wrong instantly in education centers. The hope, as it apparently is with guilty whites of the Americas, is to completely eradicate their guilt by forcing forgetfulness through sheer storytelling and repeated lying of attractive lies in hopes of outlasting the truth.

If these obviously fake conspiracies "win" enough "power" it is assumed that the old stories - the true stories - will fall away and be replaced by the bronze monuments and *ahem* 9/11 memorial museums *cough* other monolithic farts of stupidity. It is hoped that charm alone will apparently make their lies more attractive than truth and erase the foul stench that everyone can smell from miles away.
nonhocapito
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Re: Yugoslavia

Unread post by nonhocapito »

warriorhun wrote:Yugoslavia was a kind of federal state, of semi-autonomius local states: Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia-Hertzegovina, Macedonia, etc... The "nation" was of different ethnicities with different religions: Catholic Croats, Orthodox Serbs, Muslim Bosniaks (who were originally Serbs and Croats who took up Islam during the Ottoman Turk occupation of the Middle Ages), etc...
I think it made a lot of sense to "create" a nation in that part of the Balkans, because the peoples that lived there had enough in common, and the melting pot of language, religion, culture was not a reason for division.
More importantly, they had reason to stay together to become stronger and defend themselves better.

"Ethnicity" is another of those words that, while meaning nothing, can occasionally be considered crucial to define the destiny of peoples. Quite vainly, I might add. All great nations contain different ethnicities in them, and different religions too. But they have some sort of common denominator, be it geography or language or history, and if they don't have one --they create it.

All nations start out in some odd "forced" way, and all of them, retrospectively, could be considered unnecessary and unwelcomed. To argue the contrary is just an exercise of history-writing.

The truth is that a nation and a people exist as a reality until they manage to stay together.

I visited Yugoslavia a few many times as a kid, and it was a most welcoming, peaceful place. It was not an oppressed land where people struggled to be free.

Some of my ancestors came from Istria-- and were mixed in with the inextricable melting pot of slovenian, austrian, turkish and italian that characterized those people. They were forced out of it by the continuous wars that torn that land, and certainly longed for a larger, stronger nation to defend them.

Small nations are puny and cannot face their enemies. Which is why all globalists push for smaller nations, trying to single out ethnicities that have no real reason nor merit to stay isolated. Serbia has to cave on just about everything nowadays, don't it.

Two or three centuries ago, it was the opposite process. Italy too was put together using peoples from different regions that had always been divided and often enemies too. But they shared scraps of language and a geographical denomination and when the time came this was enough to accept their destiny as a nation.

Any italian knows that there was next to nothing in common between a sicilian and a piemontese back then. And still today there are more differences than public schools and television can erase.

Of course, the freemasons who designed and founded Italy, people like Garibaldi, Mazzini and Cavour, knew this very well. But they also knew that it was convenient to put these peoples together, in order to make them stronger in front of other nations -- which is the same reasoning that governed the creation of Yugsolavia.
So, guess what: Italy is an "artificial" country just like Yugoslavia or the USA or Libya.

All nations are artificial: big surprise. Ask a bird if boundaries are visible from the sky. But this artificiality only exists in the creative process, after which it is up to the people to figure out a way to stay together, or not.

There is no such thing as an "eternal" homeland. Nations exist until it is convenient and possible.

The real question is whether the people from Yugoslavia really hated each other, and really never wanted to be together. The real question is whether they would have even considered separation was it not for the meddling and manipulation of the globalists.
In Italy too you can find here and there groups and even parties that preach some form of separation -- personally I think that the Northern league, for example, is backed from abroad to test the ground for the separation of Italy -- but it is never a movement wide and strong and determined enough to divide up the country. It is more convenient yet to act as a nation, even if we don't believe in it much.

This, of course, until the globalists will not decide differently, after which some carefully placed propaganda will convince us that it was stupid to stay together to begin with.

Until then, this kind of passive patriotism remains enough to make a nation. And Yugoslavia was a nation.

It is too easy now to say that Yugoslavia had no reason to live, since it has been dismantled and torn to pieces. But the truth of the matter is that, if Yugoslavia still existed, it would have just as any reason to be as Italy or Germany of France.

Which brings us to the real point: the shameful act of arrogance of the globalist bullies that decided to pick the country apart in the wake of the dissolution of the warsaw pact.
The reasons for this war must be investigated: be them strategical, economical; or be it the need to control a piece of land from which so many resources have to travel by (see the magnificent movie "Underground", by Emir Kusturica.)
But among all these reasons, the reason of "ethnicity" and of resentment, the reasons of "history" are, in my opinion, the less significant or, rather, the less "real".

Ethnicity and historical "wrongdoings" are just tricks of the pigs in charge to con the people into war.
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